!ff = 10min

[supersexyy]

If everyone on the other teams wants to forfeit then they should be allowed to forfeit. This is common sense.

did you even read this thread or are you just making another useless post?
we are not asking to rid of !ff only put limitations on it. what nabo said is right, why should everyones time be wasted because noobs want to cry FF as soon as someone dies mid.

My post is with respect to time as the context implies. My point remains and I disagree with this suggestion.

[EdgeOfChaos]

If everyone on the other teams wants to forfeit then they should be allowed to forfeit. This is common sense.

^^^
Agree with this entirely.

Why shouldn't 5 players be able to give up before 10mins if they so choose? Anyways if you disable FF then the 5 will just fountain sit or leave all at once with the same effect.

[tlttles]

I totally agree hopefully this can be put into action.. will make DotA just that much better on ENT servers (yes dota on ent is preferable to me over dotacash/other trashy hosts)

IH clan high prz we bored

[coldfire786]

Support make it 15 min

[VirusHunter]

can we make this a poll question?

[Undef]

@uafk.b Normally there cannot be any fountain farm in first 10 minutes because pushing all the way through towers is USUALLY not enough to go fountain farm and if they fountain farm and you dont like it just stay back for 3-4 minutes . JUst because you joined a game and have bad game you dont need to ruin for other player that are there. I do not understand why some admins are not thinking about gameplay part. Normal game you cannot fountain farm within 10 mintues so 10 minutes in ff is clearly fair, and once again they stay back in fountain nothing they can do simple as that. All of the ACTIVE dota players should understand this.

@Edgeofchaos 5 people ff in first 1-3 minutes ruins game for other 5 people on other team. If they sit in fountain? So be it, its their problem, and if they leave they will get banned auto ban which will make them stop. I've seen many times when you stated wow this game ended fast boring. Its just like that for all other players so please take this in to consideration.

[BlackSpade]

i vote +1 for 10min ff ruling

[EdgeOfChaos]

Actually I don't think they would be banned if they all left the game in like, 1 minute of each other because the game would end immediately after that. !ff is just a command to get a team's consensus to all leave at the same time.

Why should people not be allowed to give up before 10 minutes? Some times you can tell that the game is over at that time, and it does say something if they all ff in 10 minutes. Many players never ff even when it's clear the game is over - ff votes are hard to pass. If the enemies ff in 10 minutes it means you beat them really, really badly and dragging that game out won't make it any better. Want better games? Stop stacking and winning the game in the lobby, because that's why people ff so fast.

[nabo.]

@edgeofchaos, It's not that I dont get what you are saying. But, from how a Dota game should naturally be...I dont think a Dota game should be shorter than 10 minutes. I would even propose a 20min !ff restriction, but I do not think most will have the patience to play for 20min before !ff.

Plz do not talk about stacking. I do not understand why people talk about "stack". It is natural that people play with friends and networks alike. The term "stack" is just a convenient term people use to blame for their loss. It is also due to the fact that wc3 doesnt have a good matching system like Dota2 or LoL.

If Dota LOD uses 10min !ff restriction, plz tell me why normal Dota cannot have this implementation?

[EdgeOfChaos]

Stacking is when you win games in the lobby. I'm not even talking about joining with a pre-arranged team, you can stack with people you don't know.

Why do you say a dota game should not be less than 10 minutes? If it's clear they will lose and everyone agrees to give up, why should they not be able to?

[nabo.]

To me the word "stacking" means stacking elo. If there are no elos for ENT, would you still call out to people in lobby "you stackers!" ??? How do you win game in lobby? If you are someone who plays for the fun and challenge, why should you be so sensitive and one way minded to predetermine you have lost a game simply because you are going against "high/stacked elos"? It is only probable or possible you will lose. I have seen countless games being won winning 20+ elo.

When I say naturally how the game should be, I mean that the game should be played until your base is dead. Is this not how the game was created? The use of !ff is a method of "technically force" ending the game (ofc, with ally team's agreement) using the bots.

Sorry if I sound aggressive. but, these are my opinions =]

I would like to ask again: If Dota LOD uses 10min !ff restriction, plz tell me why normal Dota cannot have this implemented as well?

[EdgeOfChaos]

Just because the game was created to be played until the throne dies doesn't mean that's the best way of doing it, or that we have to do it that way. WarCraft III was created so that you have to use a Host Game button and have tons of delay, and people invented bots. Bots are not the "natural" way of playing wc3 maps, but I don't see many people hosting their own games, do you?

DotA lod was made with FF in the map, and it was made with the 10 minute time limit. Having a limit in the LoD map isn't any good either, but it's not like we can do anything about it without editing the map ourselves. It's irrelevant what some other map is doing.

1) As for the stacking thing: Stacking is getting all the good players on one side. Elo is supposedly supposed to reflect skill (though a lot of the time it doesn't exactly), so stacking normally shows up in ELO gained/lost. But it doesn't matter if the top 5 ent players all make 1000 elo accounts and play on one side, it's still stacking.
2) Yes, it would be far harder to stack with no stats. That's the main argument for removing stats altogether (or have personal stats), but that's another topic.
3) I hardly ever say I lose because I'm against stackers. In fact, most of the time I make new accounts and go opposite of the stacked team just to troll them and make them work really hard for that 1.5 elo or win 29 from them at best. But most pubstomps happen because all the good players see each other and get on one side, then stomp the newbies who join next while all the other good players who join leave. I don't know how you disagree with this, this isn't even a controversial statement.

[nabo.]

Just because the game was created to be played until the throne dies doesn't mean that's the best way of doing it, or that we have to do it that way. WarCraft III was created so that you have to use a Host Game button and have tons of delay, and people invented bots. Bots are not the "natural" way of playing wc3 maps, but I don't see many people hosting their own games, do you?

Off topic. I did not argue about usage of bots. I merely explained what I meant by "natural" in my statement.

DotA lod was made with FF in the map, and it was made with the 10 minute time limit. Having a limit in the LoD map isn't any good either, but it's not like we can do anything about it without editing the map ourselves. It's irrelevant what some other map is doing.

Why is Dota LOD or Dota2 or LoL maps/games irrelevant for this topic? They are similar or alike games with similar expected rules and gameplays.

Since the !ff is already implemented on Dota LOD, you guys can tell me: Are there actually more fountain farmers and leavers because !ff is restricted at 10min? Are there more ban requests because !ff is 10min for Dota LOD? If the answers are no or not really and there arent people posting complaints about the map...I dont see the problem implementing this, right?

1) As for the stacking thing: Stacking is getting all the good players on one side. Elo is supposedly supposed to reflect skill (though a lot of the time it doesn't exactly), so stacking normally shows up in ELO gained/lost. But it doesn't matter if the top 5 ent players all make 1000 elo accounts and play on one side, it's still stacking.

Off topic. Elo skews and inaccuracy...its just a system of representation...If you guys want more accurate ratings mayb make one account only for each person? I do not see why we are further arguing about "stacking". We both stated our opinions of it. Lets not discuss further.

2) Yes, it would be far harder to stack with no stats. That's the main argument for removing stats altogether (or have personal stats), but that's another topic.

Agreed.

3) I hardly ever say I lose because I'm against stackers. In fact, most of the time I make new accounts and go opposite of the stacked team just to troll them and make them work really hard for that 1.5 elo or win 29 from them at best. But most pubstomps happen because all the good players see each other and get on one side, then stomp the newbies who join next while all the other good players who join leave. I don't know how you disagree with this, this isn't even a controversial statement.

I dont understand what you mean what I disagreed upon? I said I understand your points and presented my opinions. In brief, I admit and I see people playing with friends...not sure what the problem is for people who do not know each other and stack together. I stated that people use the term "stack" in dota1,but you will not find people use this term in other games alike like dota2 or lol, therefore, to me....people use this term to cry and Q_Q. Stacking isnt the problem, wc3's old system having no matching system is the problem.

I posted this topic to see if people/community agrees. So far, I see more agreeing posts than disagreeing for now. Just want to note that there are people who feel similar as me.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Perfectly on topic. You argued that the "natural" way of playing games is best, and I pointed out that no one plays wc3 the "natural" way.

Why is Dota LOD or Dota2 or LoL maps/games irrelevant for this topic? They are similar or alike games with similar expected rules and gameplays.

Since the !ff is already implemented on Dota LOD, you guys can tell me: Are there actually more fountain farmers and leavers because !ff is restricted at 10min? Are there more ban requests because !ff is 10min for Dota LOD? If the answers are no or not really and there arent people posting complaints about the map...I dont see the problem implementing this, right?

The difference is that -ff is implemented in the map itself and we have zero control over it, so it really doesn't set a standard of how ENT admins want this done.

I dont understand what you mean what I disagreed upon? I said I understand your points and presented my opinions. In brief, I admit and I see people playing with friends...not sure what the problem is for people who do not know each other and stack together. I stated that people use the term "stack" in dota1,but you will not find people use this term in other games alike like dota2 or lol, therefore, to me....people use this term to cry and Q_Q. Stacking isnt the problem, wc3's old system having no matching system is the problem.

Kind of irrelevant. Dota 2 has a matchmaking system, you can't swap in lobby when you see a good player enters. You can play with friends, but you will be matched with people of similar skill. LoL likewise. Having no matchmaking leads to stacking because people like winning, and high elo players win a lot, therefore people are likely to swap to their team. Having no matchmaking is obviously the primary problem here with dota 1, but since we can't exactly do anything about it, look at the concequences of having no matchmaking (i.e. stacking).

Show me a game where a team forfeited at 10 minutes, please. I guarantee there's a reason for them doing so, like the enemy team having all the good players and the score being 0-10

Who is hurt by 5 players on a team choosing to ff at 10 minutes? I'll just ask that...

[nabo.]

Perfectly on topic. You argued that the "natural" way of playing games is best, and I pointed out that no one plays wc3 the "natural" way.

I said its how the game was intended to be played. Objective: destroy enemy base=win. I remember few years ago when there was no !ff but still many bots around...game experience was still great and better. People played the game, there were comebacks and turnovers... Nowadays, there are still a lot of games finishing with the base dying^^ isnt that natural enough?

The difference is that -ff is implemented in the map itself and we have zero control over it, so it really doesn't set a standard of how ENT admins want this done.

Not that I play dota lod, but if there are problems ofc there are ways to fix things. dota lod get updated, contacting map maker or tweaking map if possible. And so, are there problems with !ff being at 10min for dota lod?

Kind of irrelevant. Dota 2 has a matchmaking system, you can't swap in lobby when you see a good player enters. You can play with friends, but you will be matched with people of similar skill. LoL likewise. Having no matchmaking leads to stacking because people like winning, and high elo players win a lot, therefore people are likely to swap to their team. Having no matchmaking is obviously the primary problem here with dota 1, but since we can't exactly do anything about it, look at the concequences of having no matchmaking (i.e. stacking).

Since dotacash dota2 dotalod lol all have !ff time restrictions, why do you suppose they do?

I dont understand. Why stacking is a consequence? We have a stats system: elo. If you have high elo avg team, you will get little elo. If you have low elo avg team, you will get high elo as reward. If there is a system in placed...why does it matter who plays with who? There are clear difference in point system being earned. Point system is calculated fairly.

I can say that: stacking issue has little to do with !ff time restriction.

Yes, it looks like it is hard to have a matching system for ent dota games. Yes, there are rules to try making game experiences nice and fair. The accumulated efforts are appluadable. Thank you ENT.

Show me a game where a team forfeited at 10 minutes, please. I guarantee there's a reason for them doing so, like the enemy team having all the good players and the score being 0-10. Who is hurt by 5 players on a team choosing to ff at 10 minutes? I'll just ask that...

Hurt? I never said !ff is a bad command to begin with. It is needed, but having it available too early diminishes game play and player/team mentality. As Soju and some others stated, we wanted to point out that a game should be played at least 10 minutes(even 15) to really tell whether your team can counterback or win the game. People should not give up too early. Making better choices, more teamwork, better items, farming good, ganking...there are so many things you can do individually/as a team to overcome scenarios. 0-15 feeding is an extreme case and ban requests exists for such cases, but most !ff due to teammate feeding or blaming is due to 1-5 deaths. These deaths can be critical, but you can certainly overcome this difference as you play the game bit longer (one gank makes huge difference).

The matter of !ff's necessity or restriction has been discussed on many forums in the past...you can try googling a few...