Top players list

[Fangorn]

Indeed it will change alot if they are split. It will help motivating -em's to play normal dota, when seeing that -em got it's own statslist. Being on top of the -em-list is of course totally fine. The thing is that the differences are too great between the modes, I just can't see any reason why they shouldn't be divided. All of the previous servers I've played on had it's own -em statslist

[ackjilmo]

I agree with Fangorn.

em mode is not simply regular dota sped up. em mode is essentially a different game. Some things to consider:

K/D/A, creep, and tower scores get inflated because of weaker towers and quicker access to high tier items without needing as much last hitting skills. At the 30 min mark in an em game, you have the same items you would get in a 60 min regular game.

Tower diving is much easier = defending yourself under a tower and defending the tower itself is a lot harder in em mode. In regular mode in the early game, one hero can defend itself adequately against two heroes. In em mode, it is very difficult to defend against two heroes by yourself (tanky heroes like axe, balanar, and centaur actually make it nigh impossible). What this usually means is that that the metagame of em mode is different: Because towers are easier to kill and also do less damage, teams usually just trade towers instead of defending them because (1) the timeframe to respond to a push on a tower is shorter; and (2) it is too easy to die under the tower when outnumbered so why risk it?

em does not benefit all heroes equally. In general, em benefits heroes that don't have natural farming abilities (such as high base damage, cleave, aoe nukes, etc.) MORE, as well as heroes that rely on physical damage (I guess you could say late gamers). Spectre is a hero that greatly benefits from em mode, for example. While heroes like QoP find that their window of effectiveness is smaller..Key items like BKB come online with little effort, neutering many heroes.


You don't have to be as selective about the order in which you get your items. The tight financial situations you would find yourself in in a regular game (e.g. should I buy a bracer now since I'm dying a lot, or should I just hope that things will get better and continue rushing that high tier item?) do not occur to the same extent in em mode, and those extra crucial decisions you make can very well change the outcome of the game.



Simply put, DotA was not balanced by Icefrog around em mode. -ap, -sd, -ar, and such game modes do fall into the domain of "balanced" game modes. Of course, -cm is the purest mode, but at least in the aforementioned modes they have the same rules as -cm after the picking phase. -em, lod, and other such modes do not.



I am sure that many em mode players are great non-em mode players, and vice versa. I think Fangorn's point is that being a great em mode player doesn't guarantee that you are as great a non-em mode player, and vice versa. Let's be open to the possibility that if separated, the lists could very well be different (i.e. not identical).



Now as for the issue of stat skewing and ELO's actual worth in terms of representing player skill..I'm not going to touch that because I haven't come up with any smart solutions yet.



For the record, I am an average player. I am not one of the top/competitive players, but I'm providing my opinion on this topic because I'd like to see credit go where it is due..first by eliminating skewing due to differing game modes. And eventually, getting rid of skewing due to stacking/friends, sniping, ghosting, etc.

[Chantry]

This debate needs to stop... 10 pages of post and nothing has come about. I don't understand what you are suggesting... That if you join an apem game you have a certain kda and elo and if you join ap then you have different stats? Thats basically saying each bot has it own set of stats per player... First off does that mean every mode now needs seperate stats because you think its all different...

Forget about the diff between apem and ap what about apem and sd do we need another leaderboard?? Or did you just forget about all the other game modes... And also no pne seeperates stats like that... Also do youknow how much more space that would take to support stats for everyone ten fold now...

[Fangorn]

Once again, if you read the suggestion, you wouldn't have to post. The split is between em and non-em. There wouldn't be "own stats for each bot".
Do everyone a favor, and read what has actually been said, so I don't have to repeat myself all the time. Thanks

ackjilmo makes alot of good points

[Chantry]

Once again, if you read the suggestion, you wouldn't have to post. The split is between em and non-em. There wouldn't be "own stats for each bot".
Do everyone a favor, and read what has actually been said, so I don't have to repeat myself all the time. Thanks

ackjilmo makes alot of good points

You're the biggest cunt and no one knows who you are, please for our sakes stop posting this stupid shit; i was asking if there are different stats for em and non-em like you join a game and you have a different elo on em and nonem bots... And then i extrapolated that idea to the arguement that could be made that different modes such as ap,ar,sd, and rd should have different leadeboarda as well due to their differances; if you didn't clue in, i made that point to illustrate the stupidity of your sugestion.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Hey, calm down all, let's keep insults and flaming to a minimum here...

[Fangorn]

Yes, if you actually read the suggestion, you wouldn't have to ask the same stupid questions over and over.

edgeofchaos makes a very good point here, you should try to read his latest post if possible

[Queen_Kristen]

Yes, I want seperate statslists, easymode differs too much from standard dota.

No, I want to keep the status quo, easymode is almost like standard dota anyway

you totally worded that to your favor... most decent players know that its not like standard dota so ofc there gonna say yes.

[EdgeOfChaos]

you totally worded that to your favor... most decent players know that its not like standard dota so ofc there gonna say yes.

Yeah.. It's a biased poll and he's still losing lol

[ackjilmo]

most decent players know that its not like standard dota

Since apparently we agree that they (em and non-em) are two different games, should they not have separate rankings?

you totally worded that to your favor... most decent players know that its not like standard dota so ofc there gonna say yes.

Yeah.. It's a biased poll and he's still losing lol

Of course he is losing. Most of the people who care about this issue are competitive players. And since the majority of their games are em games, it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't want a separation of rankings (i.e. they want to claim they are the best at dota without doing the work required for getting to the top of both em and non-em dota).

[Chantry]

most decent players know that its not like standard dota

Since apparently we agree that they (em and non-em) are two different games, should they not have separate rankings?

you totally worded that to your favor... most decent players know that its not like standard dota so ofc there gonna say yes.

Yeah.. It's a biased poll and he's still losing lol

Of course he is losing. Most of the people who care about this issue are competitive players. And since the majority of their games are em games, it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't want a separation of rankings (i.e. they want to claim they are the best at dota without doing the work required for getting to the top of both em and non-em dota).

Aren't you all high and mighty... We don't want the seperation cause its stupid nit because we wouldn't be at the top... I promise if they ever get split, ill stack my way to the top of both regardless lol...

I don't get what you are even suggesting, what happens to current stats and do the new stats stay on which bot?? And do we have seperate stats per bot... Like its just disorganized and stupid, no one even cares.

[BlackSpade]

Alot of thoughts going on in this thread that its too funny!!! it's so funny how people think that separations of the stats are going to change anything..
For example, Apem player/players that are in top of the leader board! how did most of them get there (top of the board)??
most likely stacking, smurfing ect... correct?? so lets say we have 2 different stats board for em and non em? how you figure people won't do the same with non em stats board?? you can't because most likely %99-%100, the top leader/leaders in the board are going to do the same thing as they did on EM games!! so in the end what did the separating the stats board do?? nothing!! thus its pointless. Also, people that care about the leaders board? why do you even care whos at top and what games they played?? it doesn't indicate their skill level!! I'm sure they are all at least decent players to a point but to judge a player based on stats is simply invalid. Dota is team game, IDC how good you are, you still need to win as team, single player stats means nothing!! stop whining about stats because they are pretty much meaningless numbers in the end.

[Fangorn]

Ahhh, it feels like banging one's head to the wall. I don't know whether or not the easymoders will start to play dota the way it should be played or not. I don't really care that much. I would guess they wouldn't care that much, as they only play easymode anyway. That way, the easymoders can have their statslist.
Or, it could have the opposite effect, they realize that they need to play standard dota.

[BlackSpade]

You really should bang your head to a brick wall and get some sense into you...
To think that you want actual organized game/games from public players (non vouched or anything that has anything to do with some sort of league) is utterly pointless and if you don't get this than you really need to learn the definition of general public!! you can't expect bunch of random people with wide range of skill in the game to play the way/how you want them to play the game and this applies to EM or non EM it does not matter which mode you play!! people are going to play how ever they want how they want and you can't do anything about it and to think that people are going to actually play differently in non EM modes are just plain dumb. as far as your saying about em vs non em!! ofc EM games are implemented for easier going gamers and game in general is easier due to you don't have to actually do whole lot to gain gold, easier to push towers and gain exp thus game is much faster but your theory is very wrong on regards of players because no matter what game mode players play! game mode doesn't change public gamers viewing of the game, to most of them it's all same concept, but if you feel ent must need separation of the stats between EM and non EM, you first need to change the minds of the all ent dota players not the game mode.

[ipwnipwn]

friday already, and looks like seperate statslists won xD