Game deletion

[EdgeOfChaos]

We do not delete games, just because you think it was ruined. If you care to look through our forums you would notice that being said a lot of times.

He knows that we don't delete games even if they're ruined. That's why this is posted in Suggestions and not in Game Deletion Requests.

Also why delete the games, that's not fair to the enemy team. It's not like they can see your entire teams actions at all times, etc. You still haven't convinced me that this is the right way to go about it.

This is a good point. I'd say instead of just deleting the game, set the elo loss for the losing team to 0, like you said before. Then no one gets punished for having a game ruiner ingame (Except, of course, people who get banned for votekick abuse)

[Fangorn]

I noticed that you don't want to delete games. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't. This section - suggestions - is meant for adaptation.
When it comes to hacks, I think such games needs to be deleted aswell. Many people hacks, yes, but that doesn't mean we should give up and say that it's "just a game".

Also why delete the games, that's not fair to the enemy team.

It doesn't seem like you have understood what I am saying all along. The requirement for deletion of games needs to be that 2 or more votekicks didn't pass. If the players didn't votekick, they got no rights to keep the stats. On the other hand, if they did vote !yes, the game would move on. Do you follow on the logic here?

If I recall correctly from the time I was administrator, it's a matter of pushing a button to delete games.

[EdgeOfChaos]

So, @Fangorn, in deleting stats for hackers, would we delete every game? What if a hacker is caught and he had 200+ games? It will drastically change many people's ELO to do this, and many users who had nothing to do with the hack will have stats removed.

Second: What if every user but one types !yes. Do all the players on the winning team deserve to lose the stats from that game because of one player?

[Fangorn]

Yes, I see that moral dilemma. If a hacker gets caught, it's hard to say what the right thing to do is. It is possible to compromise; delete the game which was posted through ban request, and then statswipe the hacker.

Another moral dilemma. Sadly, gameruining affects alot of players. One can not please everyone, but it is possible to strive for a fair outcome.
My suggestion is to;
- ban the gamethrower
- ban the one who doesn't vote (after being informed in allchat that there is a gameruiner)
- Delete the game only if the maphack-team won the game. IF the opposing, non-maphacking team still manages to win, they get to keep their stats. The 4 other players on the maphackers team, get's 0 elo for that game, if they lose the game.

Note: the player who refused to vote, should get the loss of elo if he lost the game, or 0 elo if his team won.

Conclusion; in such moral dilemmas, it is all about adaptation, and realizing that one can't please everyone, sadly. But I find this to be the best solution to this. Instead of having 9 players affected, there are only 3, or 4, and they don't get a minus score, they get 0 elo.

[teller55]

I haven't read every post on this thread (read most of the first 2 pages, skimmed this last page.) My opinion though is that it isn't fair to the rest of the players in the game that their time is wasted. Say if I joined a game, and someone on my team is game ruining, why should I be punished and lose my ELO because someone on my team game ruined? You just wasted everyone in that games time if you delete the stats because of one person. We will have many more complaints on the forum if this was implemented due to people who it isn't their fault, losing stats for a game just because someone else decided to game ruin. By deleting the stats, you ruin the game for everyone else that was in the game.

Also, if you map hack, your stats are erased, (just as an FYI, I know it's off-topic.)

[EdgeOfChaos]

I haven't read every post on this thread (read most of the first 2 pages, skimmed this last page.) My opinion though is that it isn't fair to the rest of the players in the game that their time is wasted. Say if I joined a game, and someone on my team is game ruining, why should I be punished and lose my ELO because someone on my team game ruined? You just wasted everyone in that games time if you delete the stats because of one person. We will have many more complaints on the forum if this was implemented due to people who it isn't their fault, losing stats for a game just because someone else decided to game ruin. By deleting the stats, you ruin the game for everyone else that was in the game.

Also, if you map hack, your stats are erased, (just as an FYI, I know it's off-topic.)

Agree with everything you said teller. We shouldn't take away people's wins. However I think it would be fair to restore the loser's stats in a case where someone on the losing side is purposely making their own team lose. That way, people who purposely make their team lose will have little impact on ENT stats (They will only be giving a side ELO instead of taking ELO from their own team)
I like this idea from agreements

That means winners get they're win + elo they earned, losers get nothing, but doesn't lose anything either.

[ipwnipwn]

i agree with deleting losing team stats if the game get ruined

[teller55]

That's still not fair to the winning team... "We're losing, I'll just throw the game so my teammates don't lose ELO."

Besides, the player should be votekicked if he's game ruining. If there isn't enough votes for votekick, and the person is clearly game ruining, report them and the people that didn't votekick will get banned for allowing game ruining.

[EdgeOfChaos]

How about we only do it if the person in question is only ruining from the start of the game (3 mins or less) and it continues to the end of game (He doesn't leave or get kicked) to make sure it's only used in the most extreme cases?

[teller55]

If he isn't kicked, then he isn't ruining the game enough for people to care to kick him. If we allow this, people won't bother kicking the guy, because they'll figure "meh, we can try to win, but hey, if we lose, we can just ask to get the game stats erased so we don't lose any ELO."

If someone is ruining the game enough where people think the guy causing them to lose, they should votekick him.

[ipwnipwn]

But sometimes the other team dont wanna kick, cuz he is making the game easy to them, that happens to me alot

[supersexyy]

Who cares about stats anyway.... Just deal with it

[Chantry]

Its just generally a bad idea... Just desl with it... What happens if you prove someone on scourge is feeding sent yet the scourge wins but you on the sent are butt hurt so you report? The whole elo system is based on your score versus others and what happens if the players play games before your request can be completed...

You're just mad about a game you lost and are trying to make it seem like an issue... Like relax and win your elo back. Look at my recents games 2.3k down to 2.1k in 5 games... You can sure as hell bet that i want my elo back with this new system but yet i think its a bad idea... I believe i would simply abuse it like many other people and create a massive report with a bunch of bs and excuses for every game i will ever lose....

Imo not needed and frankly uneccesarey

[EdgeOfChaos]

Well, this system would require a small bit of common sense on part of the mods. Obviously we wouldn't clear stats if the team with the feeder wins. That would make no sense.

If you reported every game, all of those would be denied because I doubt there's someone on your team throwing the game every time. We wouldn't use this if there were noobs on your team.

It's not like every time we see a gameruiner report we instantly accept it. We do actually judge case-by-case here. So I don't know what creating lots of fake ban requests would do, besides maybe getting you banned from the forum if you didn't stop.

ou're just mad about a game you lost and are trying to make it seem like an issue...

I'm not o_O
I can !kick any feeder ingane, I wouldn't lose games because of them. I want this though.

[Chantry]

@edgeofchaos i was saying fangorn was mad not you.

So what is considered 'gameruining' what if a player takes your argis and literally due to your carry not having it you lose... Or if you have a noob and he goes 0-30 cause hes horrid did he not ruin your game? Theres so many ways a single person could ruin a game besides feeding :/ like if a player isn't present for a gank where he is needed he coukd be blamed for the loss instead of the rest of you.

I think its a silly rule becauae dota is that kind of game, you just got to deal with it... What if i lose cause i have a leaver? Last night i lost two games because of two different leavers... Should i report that and get my elo back? (No imo) the entire elo system is based on the individual players ability, if you are a 1.5 or a 1.1k you will stay there regardless if a feeder ruined a single game...

Imo would be hard as heck to enforce since it such a shady thing/opinion based.