Balancing thoughts for Panda

[1337hamburger]

Changes for the main builder:
-Change Medium armor to Heavy (0,4,8 on upgrade path)
-Research center no long provides food, instead panda will use 6 fruit trees
-Panda is no longer able to train champion harvesters, only the normal harvesters
-Research center is no longer needed to train harvesters
-Research center is changed from 2 heavy armor to 5 fortified armor
-Advanced Research Center cost changed to 35 gold and 1500 lumber
-Can build merchant (merchant is required to upgrade hp past fourth research, just like other builders)
-Dart towers have 1 additional upgrade for 5 more damage and 5% attack speed for 1200 lumber (merchant required)
-Tree walls can have 150hp boost researched for 1000 lumber after a merchant or advanced research center is built
-The last resource gathering upgrade and harvester hp upgrade will require both a merchant and an advanced research center
-Storm, earth and fire escape ability removed
-Builder has passive ability (Drunken Brawler) that gives the main Panda 20% evasion
-The Main panda has a cast-able ability (Drunken Haze) that is very similar to the Ogre fart ability, drunken haze will increase the movement speed of the Panda, and also will give nearby enemies a 20% chance to miss for 5 seconds (punishable).

Changes for Storm Panda:
-To research Storm Panda at the advanced research center; a player will need to pay 10 gold and 500 lumber (500 lumber less than before)
-Will remain Medium armor (0,2,4 on upgrade path)
-Lightning towers will be 250 lumber instead of 200
-Remove critical hits from lightning towers and add upgrade that adds 5 base damage to lightning towers (5 gold 500 lumber)
-Base damage upgrade required for unlocking Storm Spires (15 gold 1000 lumber) Storm Spires will also have their critical strike removed, and will cost and additional 1 food to upgrade to. Storm Spires will go from 35 base damage to 50 base damage.
-Hurricane winds level 1: reveals nearby enemies (DOES NOT SLOW ENEMIES OR INCREASE BUILDERS SPEED) 5 gold 1000 lumber
-Hurricane winds level 2: still reveals enemies but also significantly slows enemies within 400 range at the time of the cast (punishable) 5 gold 1000 lumber
-New research changes Storm Pandas attack range from 350 to 600 (5 gold 500 lumber)
-New research that requires the attack range upgrade, while Storm Panda attacks an enemy; an aura is released that increases nearby allied units and towers attack speed by 10% (stacks with box of storms). 15 gold 1500 lumber. (I think that this ability would bring a use to being in Storm Panda form, and gives Panda a strong way of base supporting.)
-While in Storm Panda form, 15 lumber is gathered per hit.

Changes for Fire Panda:
-To research Fire Panda at the advanced research center; a player will need to pay 10 gold and 500 lumber (500 lumber less than before)
-Heavy armor (0,4,8 on upgrade path)
-Extreme heat will start at 60fps instead of 30dps. The upgrade path will go from 60dps to 90dps to 120dps. (5 gold and 1k lumber, then 10 gold and 1500 lumber)
-Volcano towers will go from 6 food to 4 food, until it is upgraded (2 food to upgrade)
-Volcano towers will be 1800 lumber to build and 1200 lumber to upgrade, instead of 2000 then 1000.
-Active volcano removed (multi-targeting)
-After burn doubles in dps, goes to 10dps for 20 seconds.
-Add Breath of Fire ability, (15 gold 2000 lumber) 200 damage on impact and 10dps for 20 seconds after (stacks with after burn) also reduces enemies speed that are hit by it, for 5 seconds. (punishable)
-While in Fire Panda form, 15 lumber is gathered per hit.

Changes to Earth Panda:
Earth Panda will be the most changed form out of all of them, earth will become and avatar state that lasts 90 seconds and has a 4 minute cooldown.
-20 gold and 2000 lumber to research
-Can still be activated from any other form.
-Both battle training upgrades required before earth can be researched
-Earth panda can build shelters and walls (Tree walls, golem walls removed), will have "human" style building. (can't wall walk)
-Earth Panda "comes with" 125 chaos damage (normal attack speed), 16 fortified armor, +450hp (bringing Earth to a minimum of 1000hp, because battle training is required) and a taunt ability with a 15 second cooldown.
-Additional "hardened skin" can be researched for 10 gold and 1500 lumber, gives a 50% chance to reduce damage by 50.
-Summon rock golems can be researched for 10 gold and 2000 lumber. Two Rock Golems will be summoned and have 900hp, 60 normal damage (2.0 attack speed) and 4 heavy armor, they do not have blink, and give the titan 4 gold each if killed.
-For 5 gold and 1000 lumber there is an additional golem research that gives the golems a 5% bash rate, with a 0.5 stun.

Changes to Pandarens Box:
-500 lumber to build
-90 gold and 1000 lumber to upgrade
-Box of Gaia Removed
-Box of Storms: +5 armor to nearby units and structures, increase attack speed of nearby units by 15%. In item form the builder gets increased movement speed and +5 armor. (current box of storms makes the builder to fast in my opinion, the boost should be nerfed)
-Box of Pyros: -7 armor to nearby enemies, -10% damage to nearby enemies. In item form it gives the builder a stack-able 25dps immolation aura (300 range) and reduced enemies armor by 7 if they are attacked while the box of pyros is in the attackers inventory.

[Merex]

Balancing thoughts for Panda Av1oN edition.

Changes for the main builder:
-Change Medium armor to Heavy (0,4,8 on upgrade path)
-Research center no long provides food, instead panda will use 6 fruit trees - Not sure how I feel about this, I think panda's easy food access is what made him unique.
-Panda is still able to train champion harvesters prior normal harvesters - I think champions should be made to have an equivalent rate as normal and let whomever is playing have the optional risk + increase the EXP/Gold for killing just 1.
-Research center is no longer needed to train harvesters
-Research center is changed from 2 heavy armor to 5 fortified armor
-Advanced Research Center cost changed to 35 gold and 1500 lumber
-Can build merchant (merchant is required to upgrade hp past fourth research, just like other builders)
-Dart towers have 1 additional upgrade for 5 more damage and 5% attack speed for 2000 lumber. The dart towers are initially a low substitute of panda's potential just for survival means. I think keeping it regularly obtainable via higher cost is more effective for a last-hope scenario.
-Tree walls can have 2 150hp boosts researched for 1000/1500 lumber after a advanced research center is built. - Honestly merchant on a panda should be only necessary for offensive-related means and/or the optional gnoll and nothing more. // If golem walls are being removed - 2 researches should be necessary for panda walls (since they're basically becoming global trees now).
-The last resource gathering upgrade and harvester hp upgrade will require an advanced research center - See above.
-Storm, earth and fire escape ability removed
-Builder has passive ability (Drunken Brawler) that gives the main Panda 20% evasion
-The Main panda has a cast-able ability (Drunken Haze) that is very similar to the Ogre fart ability, drunken haze will increase the movement speed of the Panda, and also will give nearby enemies a 20% chance to miss for 5 seconds (punishable).

Changes for Storm Panda:
-To research Storm Panda at the advanced research center; a player will need to pay 10 gold and 500 lumber (500 lumber less than before)
-Will remain Medium armor (0,2,4 on upgrade path)
-Lightning towers will be 250 lumber instead of 200
-Remove critical hits from lightning towers and add upgrade that adds 5 base damage to lightning towers (5 gold 500 lumber)
-Base damage upgrade required for unlocking Storm Spires (15 gold 1000 lumber) Storm Spires will also have their critical strike removed, and will cost and additional 1 food to upgrade to. Storm Spires will go from 35 base damage to 50 base damage.
-Hurricane winds level 1: reveals nearby enemies (DOES NOT SLOW ENEMIES OR INCREASE BUILDERS SPEED) 5 gold 1000 lumber
-Hurricane winds level 2: still reveals enemies but also significantly slows enemies within 400 range at the time of the cast (punishable) 5 gold 1000 lumber - Not sure how I feel about this possible revision. This ability is initially an escape for panda storm and it's also a duration-related one so if the titan punishes it'll just happen again and the movespeed is also necessary if this supposed drunken brawl isn't global to all forms.
-New research changes Storm Pandas attack range from 350 to 600 (5 gold 500 lumber)
-New research that requires the attack range upgrade, while Storm Panda attacks an enemy; an aura is released that increases nearby allied units and towers attack speed by 10% (stacks with box of storms). 15 gold 1500 lumber. (I think that this ability would bring a use to being in Storm Panda form, and gives Panda a strong way of base supporting.)
-While in Storm Panda form, 15 lumber is gathered per hit.

Changes for Fire Panda:
-To research Fire Panda at the advanced research center; a player will need to pay 10 gold and 500 lumber (500 lumber less than before)
-Heavy armor (0,4,8 on upgrade path)
-Extreme heat will start at 60fps instead of 30dps. The upgrade path will go from 60dps to 90dps to 120dps. (5 gold and 1k lumber, then 10 gold and 1500 lumber)
-Volcano towers will go from 6 food to 4 food, until it is upgraded (2 food to upgrade)
-Volcano towers will be 1800 lumber to build and 1200 lumber to upgrade, instead of 2000 then 1000.
-Active volcano removed (multi-targeting)
-After burn doubles in dps, goes to 10dps for 20 seconds.
-Add Breath of Fire ability, (15 gold 2000 lumber) 200 damage on impact and 10dps for 20 seconds after (stacks with after burn) also reduces enemies speed that are hit by it, for 5 seconds. (punishable)
-While in Fire Panda form, 15 lumber is gathered per hit.

Changes to Earth Panda:
Earth Panda will be the most changed form out of all of them, earth will become and avatar state that lasts 90 seconds and has a 4 minute cooldown.
-20 gold and 2000 lumber to research
-Can still be activated from any other form.
-Both battle training upgrades required before earth can be researched
-Earth panda can build shelters and walls (Tree walls, golem walls removed), will have "human" style building. (can't wall walk)
-Earth Panda "comes with" 125 chaos damage (normal attack speed), 16 fortified armor, +450hp (bringing Earth to a minimum of 1000hp, because battle training is required) and a taunt ability with a 15 second cooldown.
-Additional "hardened skin" can be researched for 10 gold and 1500 lumber, gives a 50% chance to reduce damage by 50.
-Summon rock golems can be researched for 10 gold and 2000 lumber. Two Rock Golems will be summoned and have 900hp, 60 normal damage (2.0 attack speed) and 4 heavy armor, they do not have blink, and give the titan 4 gold each if killed.
-For 5 gold and 1000 lumber there is an additional golem research that gives the golems a 5% bash rate, with a 0.5 stun.

Changes to Pandarens Box:
-500 lumber to build
-90 gold and 1000 lumber to upgrade
-Box of Gaia Removed
-Box of Storms: +5 armor to nearby units and structures, increase attack speed of nearby units by 15%. In item form the builder gets increased movement speed and +5 armor. (current box of storms makes the builder to fast in my opinion Same as aura tree (i think), the boost should be nerfed)
-Box of Pyros: -7 armor to nearby enemies, -10% damage to nearby enemies. In item form it gives the builder a stack-able 25dps immolation aura (300 range) and reduced enemies armor by 7 if they are attacked while the box of pyros is in the attackers inventory.

Besides my comments on your changes, overall opinion on the changes I like. Especially how much more tanky earth panda will be.

[1337hamburger]

A few things in reply to av1on:
-Drunken brawler is not global
-I think that panda should have fruits because it is such a lumber dependent builder, needing to get 200 lumber off the start to get 150/150 food slows down the start of the lumber base. I think it will also help balance because you will need to fill more space in your base with fruits. (since panda often fills almost an entire base with storm towers.)
-I agree with the last dart upgrade costing around 2000 lumber, it wont be a very used upgrade either way since you need 45 gold, and you can get either fire or storm for the same gold.
-With the hurricane winds, I think changing them in a way similar to what i suggest would change the dynamic of which form to use when in a positive way. The main builder would probably be the form to gold in, Storm would be a support (ww reveal, ward killer, aura) and fire would be more of a hunting form.

[Merex]

Going off the idea of panda storm being the potential base supporter - He should have a range upgrade or 2 to actually be able to kill a ward without being nuked to death. If not that, then a magic resistance tech.

[1337hamburger]

I stated in the original post to have an upgrade to go from 350 range to 600.

[lordmillt]

Dont make arc cost more. Plos

Edit: i wanna know if earth will cost 10g or 20g for research.

[Merex]

@lordmillt

Changes to Earth Panda:
-20 gold and 2000 lumber to research

[lordmillt]

@av1on isnt that for avatar research, vut if ita for research earth, i think its bad.

[1337hamburger]

Millt, I'm not sure if I made it clear enough in the original post but, earth panda would be changed into an avatar state completely. You would no longer be able to "idle" in earth panda form, it would last 90 seconds with with a 4 minute cooldown.

[Lynx]

Great work!

But to be honest I don't think any major change is needed . It's becomes a hassle with a lot of testing etc. What really is needed to change from the 3.0.9d panda is lumber cost decrease on upgrades and a random chance to spawn in each panda type when he uses his escape.

[Merex]

These type of revisions on a builder like panda could be very benefiting though.

[Neco]

Panda does need to be fleshed out more compared to 9d. There were no real useful upgrade paths for all of the forms (like storm).

[Lynx]

Panda does need to be fleshed out more compared to 9d. There were no real useful upgrade paths for all of the forms (like storm).

Panda was useful, he just needed 100k lumber for a decent base.

[Neco]

Never said Panda wasn't useful. I said his upgrade paths were not useful. Going Storm only let you upgrade like 3 things which isn't much at all.

[Merex]

@Neco I think these changes burger proposed are pretty solid.