Posted LTD Rules

[Avatar_Ship]

I find the rules in regards to King control as posted to be a bit unclear, which may inadvertently cause problems. I would like to suggest that the rules be rewritten for clarity. For example, the rules as posted now, what is the difference between:

LTD

Intentionally preventing the king from killing or attacking units (king juggling) is forbidden. Whereas switching the target to kill sent (priority) units is allowed.

and:

LTD-in-house

Every form of juggling is banned (that includes preventing the king from attacking, delaying attacks, changing the target to gain more time or gold etc.)

These are two sentences that apparently say the same thing. Leaving aside the debate as to whether or not it should be permitted to change targets, at least spell out in the rules what is allowed and what isn't. The fact that the in-house rules state "Every form of juggling is banned..." implies, to me, that some forms of juggling aren't banned in normal LTD. If the same is true in normal LTD, then it should also say "Every form of juggling is banned", or if some forms of juggling aren't banned, it should clearly state "You're allowed to do x y and z, all other forms of juggling are banned".

For example, if switching targets before killing isn't allowed, then is using a king ability (such as wave or stomp) to delay damaging units also against the rules? If it is or isn't, it should be spelled out. The rules should be clear and consistent.

The context of my question is that, when the new rules were posted, I wasn't sure as to what they meant. and so I asked an admin about changing targets before killing and was told that as long as it wasn't using the exploit on the map that stops the king from attacking, then it was allowed. I subsequently got banned for a day for doing just that. I don't care about the ban (in as much as I'm not here to complain about it and will abide by it) but it seems to me the rules should be consistent and clearly spelled out for anyone reading them for what is allowed and what isn't, that way there isn't any guessing. I have played over 4k games on ENT and am a player who wants a good game and that means everyone playing by the same rules, so I always endeavor to follow the rules, but I need to know them in order to follow them.

[aRt)Y]

For you to read:
(the suggestion) https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=38477
(the rule clarity discussion) https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=124&t=27034

The lihl rule was added after the pub rule was added - actually, it got rephrased from
"You are not allowed to change the king's target (repetitively) nor to delay attacks with the purpose of gaining more gold or time."
to
"Every form of juggling is banned (that includes preventing the king from attacking, delaying attacks, changing the target to gain more time or gold etc.)"

[Diablo_]

From what I can tell (it might be wrong) is that you can delay attacks to some extent in pub games. That means you kill a creep, the king starts a new attack animation on another creep and before the attack goes off you switch the target to another creep, so it cancels the current animation and starts a new one on the new target. But you can't do that more than once per creep/attack, else it is also considered juggling in pub rules.
Funny thing is, it's intended to allow this in pub games, yet it was said if LIHL players do that in pub games they will be banned, yaya.

I didn't read through the second thread arty posted as it seems outdated (and was created before the latest rule change), but here's the correct one:
https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=40833

[nabo.]

@Avatar_Ship

Many people ask me about the rules, so I am guessing you asked me in the past regarding juggling.

Yes, it used to be allowed to change targets stalling time as long as the king was attacking, since our previous rule was that it would be considered juggling when king is "prevented from attacking". Thus, as long as the king was technically attacking, it was acceptable.

After a suggestion and ltd open discussion, we decided to revise our rule.

NOW: it will be considered king juggling if you prevent the king from killing and/or attacking. Therefore, you have to kill what you are attacking, unless you are switching targets to kill sent-units by the opposition team.

We adjusted the rule because there were people arguing that for certain cases people could potentially stall time too long (due to aura effects) and that it should be natural that king should kill leaks and the opposition team get the gold they deserve.

Yes, you did get banned, but I only 1 day as a warning. You were not up to date with our ltd juggling rule which was revised and changed quite few months ago. So yes, it is partially your fault. You could always appeal, too.

[Avatar_Ship]

aRt)Y - Thanks for the links. A long read. The thread I started here wasn't so much to debate the rule change, but to clarify how the rules are written because they are unclear, as I stated in my OP.

I personally think it's an absurd rule, because what else is banned? Is using wave backwards or stomp on ranged levels now banned because it buys time? Also, the poll had 27 respondents, not exactly a high enough number to justify changing the rule. I can tell you that most people I play with think it's ridiculous, that as long as you're not exploiting a mechanic on the map to prevent the king from attacking at all, it's not "juggling".

But, I digress, this thread wasn't about debating the merits of the new rule or the old rule, but about writting the rules clearly enough so that people reading them can understand exactly what is banned and what isn't, that way people like me who want to follow the rules of fair play aren't caught thinking something is legal when it isn't.

[Avatar_Ship]

nabo - Yes, as I stated, this thread wasn't to complain about being banned, I understand and abide by it and won't appeal it. As a moderator, you're doing your job in applying the current rules, regardless of my opinion of the rule.

I started the thread because of how the rules are written. If the rule is going to be "you can only change target to attack a creep with lower hp or sends from the other team", then it should state that. If using a king ability to delay, such as using wave backwards or stomp on a ranged round is also now banned, then it should clearly state that. If it isn't, then you've created a rule with a double standard (some time delaying tactics are ok but others aren't).

As the rule between LTD and in-house now seem to be the same, yet are written differently, it's natural that it has created confusion.

Also, it another suggestion would be that when a major rule like that is changed, that there be some notice of the rule change, either on the main page of the site or in the game itself (such as when leaving at 29 with merc became banned).

[nabo.]

@Avatar_Ship

I am not sure why you are comparing lihl rule to the pub ltd rule. They are not even presented on the same page.

King juggling used to only mean when people "juggled" or "danced" the king, but we had to revise it due to cases of abuse.

Intentionally preventing the king from killing or attacking units (king juggling) is forbidden. Whereas switching the target to kill sent (priority) units is allowed.

You say the rule should be specific, I disagree.

The rule already covers all cases of possible abuse.

Intentionally preventing the king from killing

= changing target when a creep is low hp to prevent killing it and stall time

Intentionally preventing the king from attacking

= juggling or dancing the king abusing its slow/delay attack animation + cases where people use stomp or wave needlessly to prevent king from attacking and stall time.

Whereas switching the target to kill sent (priority) units is allowed.

=This line was added as an exception to the "prevent king from killing" rule since obviously people should change target to sent-units like demons and krakens because they are higher priority targets.

What is hard to understand?

lihl rule simply states the same thing indicating that ALL forms of juggling is prohibited. This wording only works for people who know how to abuse the king. Many pubs do not understand all forms of juggling. Therefore, our current wording sounds reasonable.

--------------------------------------
Edit: Rules were announced on all LTD bots + a sticky topic was posted on LTD section.
+The wiki page shows updates on its main page: http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
+We send email notices when we change rules if you signed up: https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39662

Pretty sure you just did not notice and/or read any.

[Avatar_Ship]

I am not sure why you are comparing lihl rule to the pub ltd rule. They are not even presented on the same page.

Well, people tend to read more than one page on the same website. I know I do. The reason for comparison is that they are, essentially, the same rule written differently. Anyone, like me, who reads more than 1 page is likely to get confused, because of what's implied in how the lihl rule is written compared with how the LTD rule is written.

King juggling used to only mean when people "juggled" or "danced" the king, but we had to revise it due to cases of abuse.

Your definition of "abuse" is different from mine. Maybe I've just been around WC3 longer. Abuse used to mean using an exploit on the map not intended by the map maker. In other words, using a mechanic of the map for something that amounts to a cheat. As the king attacking isn't an exploit, and being able to switch targets isn't an exploit, changing targets before killing them isn't "abuse", it's strategy. Simply because it's a strategy you don't like doesn't mean it should be banned.

You say the rule should be specific, I disagree.

Anytime something is written in such a way that it can be re-written to cause less confusion, why wouldn't you? Unless the whole point is to cause confusion so you can have fun banning people who break the rule not intentionally but because they simply don't know better because you've deliberately obfuscated the rule, which I don't think is ENT's goal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What is hard to understand?

Well, the fact that switching the target before it dies isn't "preventing the king from killing it", as you're not stopping the king from attacking. You've simply delayed it dying by attacking something else first. The wording is poor.

This wording only works for people who know how to abuse the king. Many pubs do not understand all forms of juggling. Therefore, our current wording sounds reasonable.

Well, as many people don't understand, as you've said, then it would be better to be as clear as possible so people do understand, rather than being less than perfectly clear and spelling it out. I must say, your objection to being as clear as possible is baffling, unless you're wanting to have fun banning people who don't interpret the rule the way you think it reads and make an honest mistake.

This is why I also think there should be a greater effort at informing users, or having an amnesty period, rather than quietly changing a rule then banning people because it's suddenly changed.

[nabo.]

I said people dont understand because they simply dont know the different forms of "juggling" we have labeled as. Not because our rule is worded bad. If you have better wording, feel free to make a suggestion.

As for whether changing target is abuse or not, this has already been discussed, the suggestion was passed, and the rule was adjusted.

Edit: Rules were announced on all LTD bots + a sticky topic was posted on LTD section.
+The wiki page shows updates on its main page: http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
+We send email notices when we change rules if you signed up: https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39662

This is more than enough effort to inform our users. If you did not notice our rules after 2 months...it is on you, not us.

having an amnesty period

We are lenient by warning or unbanning them for the first few weeks.

You think I have fun banning people? Where this come from?

Move on.

[supersexyy]

Hi I'm ex lihl/ltd mod.
Lihl used to have the same wording as the pub bot. The pub rules previously were 'preventing the king from attacking to gain gold/time', however in the lihl there was an incident where a player was juggling on level 16 so the salamanders would circle the king and so he could snipe the demons without the demons doing damage. Thus according to the rules it was allowed (he was doing it to survive, not for 'gold/time'). Lihl then changed the rule to a very blanket 'no juggling' whereby all lihl players know exactly what juggling is.

The pub rule was undergoing changes
1. 'Must target high level sends first eg kraken' not sure if this is still a rule but it's not a rule in lihl.
2. 'Mustn't prevent the king from killing units' eg you cannot attack one unit then switch when it has 10% life points (without delaying animation). This is to stop crossers not killing units when their units take a while to return to mid (not an issue in lihl).

Hope that kinda makes sense.

Tldr The two rules branched out and might have converged back again with the exception of the two rules listed above.

Ps nabo why are you so mad

[Avatar_Ship]

I said people dont understand because they simply dont know the different forms of "juggling" we have labeled as. Not because our rule is worded bad. If you have better wording, feel free to make a suggestion.

Thank you, I will do so the moment I have some time to sit down and write something without distraction. I will then post it later in this thread. Do we have a clear ruling on whether using wave/stomp to delay attacking is banned? Because when I asked that question last night, I was told it's "debatable". Rule applications should never be debatable, they should be consistent and precise. So, is it or isn't it?

As for whether changing target is abuse or not, this has already been discussed, the suggestion was passed, and the rule was adjusted.

And, as I stated in the OP, this thread isn't about the rule change, but in how it was written and not announced, and to improve how it's written to avoid further confusion. The rule itself came up as a side topic so I commented by stating my opinion, but the original point of the thread isn't about the rule change itself.

This is more than enough effort to inform our users. If you did not notice our rules after 2 months...it is on you, not us.

When the rule changed to ban mercs who leave after 29, it was announced in game. Not everyone cares to get emails, or keep up to date on the forums. I do check the rules to make sure I am following them, and I ask mods when I'm unsure. If you recall, I had asked months ago about exactly that so I wouldn't get banned.

Whenever you have a major rule change, you're going to wind up with people who just don't know. That's why I suggested a brief amnesty period, and also either posting it on the main page so people see it when they come into ENT, and/or an announcement in the game itself, just like when the merc rule changed. It's obviously something not too difficult to do as it was done before.

You think I have fun banning people? Where this come from?

I never meant you personally did. I said, unless you (generic) did, you'd want the rule to be as clear as possible, which you seemed to object to. In my mind, I thought I was clear because the context provided in the next sentence had "....which I don't think is ENT's goal." in it. I didn't think you, personally, had written the rule so the you was meant in a generic sense. See how easy it is for something intended in communication to be misinterpreted?

[Avatar_Ship]

@ supersexyy:



Well, this is a bit off topic, but to reply:

however in the lihl there was an incident where a player was juggling on level 16 so the salamanders would circle the king and so he could snipe the demons without the demons doing damage. Thus according to the rules it was allowed

I'm not seeing why this is an issue. In regular LTD, hardly anyone ever sends 16, and it's certainly no longer a game winner. I've been playing LTD since ver 1, long before ENT was even created, so by no means am I new to the map. People are going to be creative in how they use manual targeting, that's not a map exploit. Personally, I commend him for his creative use of king control by not "juggling" the king (as it was defined back then).

'Mustn't prevent the king from killing units' eg you cannot attack one unit then switch when it has 10% life points (without delaying animation). This is to stop crossers not killing units when their units take a while to return to mid (not an issue in lihl).

Not seeing what the problem is with this either. I started using cross build to counter people deliberately going merc on 6 or 7 in prophet games. Because merc is OP, cross counters it. As this strategy isn't using a map exploit, I'm not seeing the issue here, other than some people complaining because they don't like it. Don't like crossers? Take Merc out of the map, I'd be happy to go back to solo building. And if you don't like cross strategies, play a no-cross bot, they exist.

In the past, if you don't like something on a map, you've always been free to stop playing it and make your own. Clearly, I disagree with not being able to manually change targets if you want to. That's quite different from juggling the king and making him not attack, which is a map exploit.

Hope that kinda makes sense.

Yes, what you wrote makes perfect sense, I simply disagree with the reasoning behind the rule change.

But, just so no one jumps on me for responding to this topic, the thread isn't and wasn't about the rule change or my opinion on the rule change, I only comment because it was brought up as a side topic.

[supersexyy]

You asked for why and how the lihl and pub rules differed, I just provided some information to clear up that confusion.

[nabo.]

Thank you, I will do so the moment I have some time to sit down and write something without distraction. I will then post it later in this thread. Do we have a clear ruling on whether using wave/stomp to delay attacking is banned? Because when I asked that question last night, I was told it's "debatable". Rule applications should never be debatable, they should be consistent and precise. So, is it or isn't it?

I said deabtable because it depends on the situation. Our rule was not intended for cases where people use king's skill to prevent king from attacking or stall time. But, it is true that people do and could do this and this would fall under "prevent king from attacking". There have not been any report regarding such usage of king's skill because it is simply not a big of a deal. King's mana doesnt instantly regenrate and one two empty stomps/shock waves shouldnt have much of an impact to the game and be considered game ruining. For now, lets leave it that we will not need to ban for such cases until I see someone abusing it bad somehow.

Whenever you have a major rule change, you're going to wind up with people who just don't know. That's why I suggested a brief amnesty period, and also either posting it on the main page so people see it when they come into ENT, and/or an announcement in the game itself, just like when the merc rule changed. It's obviously something not too difficult to do as it was done before.

Again... it was announced in lobby/games as an auto message.

I never meant you personally did. I said, unless you (generic) did, you'd want the rule to be as clear as possible, which you seemed to object to. In my mind, I thought I was clear because the context provided in the next sentence had "....which I don't think is ENT's goal." in it. I didn't think you, personally, had written the rule so the you was meant in a generic sense. See how easy it is for something intended in communication to be misinterpreted?

I actually was part in writing the rules oO Rule seems pretty clear to me.
But, as I said, feel free to suggest w/e sounds best.

[Avatar_Ship]

@ supersexy

You asked for why and how the lihl and pub rules differed, I just provided some information to clear up that confusion.

Actually, I didn't. I said that how the same rule written in both lihl and LTD is written differently, and that's lead to some confusion (notably, mine) because it implies there's a difference, and that it might be helpful to clearly spell out what's banned and what isn't banned so that others don't inadvertently break the rules when they're not intending to.