Reforming Votekick

[TO_CARRY_OR_NOT]

Yesterday I was banned due to kicking some feeder on sentinel.
(viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27901&p=123752&hilit=urballsrshowing#p123752)

After pondering this ban for twenty minutes or so, I decided that !votekick should either be removed or one should not be banned for merely kicking someone that the majority wants out of the game.

Let's take this example.

newnoob52 picks Drow Ranger, proceeds to feed 0-7-0 in 13 minutes, but he won't leave.
At this 14th minute, someone decides to initiate the vote kick. He gets kicked, posts on a forum and 9 good players get banned.

So 9 good players just got banned because an 0-7-0 drow was wasting their time in the first place.

Would it not make sense to kick someone who is not only causing his team a loss, but also wasting 9 other people's time? Especially if the ENEMY team agrees that the situation is out of hand? The opponents that are trying to make you lose in the first place think that this noob has created such an unfair advantage for them that even THEY think he should be kicked.

I think when vote kick is being used and EVERYONE in the game thinks, "yea its that bad", then perhaps newnoob52 will learn his lesson and not play Drow the way he did. Perhaps newnoob52 will take a new approach and pick heroes that help his team. By kicking him, we teach him a lesson, instead of getting banned.

Look at it this way. If you don't vote kick him, you are promoting ENT members to not be afraid to act careless and stupid and die multiple times as long as its "unintentional."

So if you don't want to remove this silly rule, get rid of vote kick all altogether. I have played around 100 games here and I have never seen it used once effectively. Players rarely go into games with the mentality that they want to throw and usually it is too late by the time he gets kicked.I have even seen players breaking rules and other players not kicking the rule-braeker.

Too many people are getting banned for kicking 0-9 noobs where even the ENEMY wants him gone.
This opportunity cost is not worth it to kick one rule-breaker every several hundred games.

There are better ways to help out new players than this silly rule.

At the very least, remove the ban penalty for the enemies who are trying to show mercy for the team with the noob.

[supersexyy]

I agree that noobs should be able to be kicked in certain situations. Civ wars is dead because when 5 good players are in the lobby and one noob joins, the team with the noob is forced to leave rather than the noob being removed.

Similarly in Dota, if 9 players feel 1 player is ruining their gaming experience by feeding noob - that is almost as bad as it being ruined by a game ruiner.

That being said, removing votekick all together is definitely not the right way to go about things. Votekick is required to remove afks/intentional feeders.

[aRt)Y]

one should not be banned for merely kicking someone that the majority wants out of the game.

Someone claimed the guy maphacks and all kick the accused maphacker, is it a legit votekick because the majority voted? No. It is abuse.

I dont see the problem with this whole votekick thing. If the user feeds on purpose or ignores to learn/to take the advice (which is of course no yelling!), then you are free to kick.

If he tries but fails, then a votekick is not needed nor acceptable.

[TO_CARRY_OR_NOT]

one should not be banned for merely kicking someone that the majority wants out of the game.

Someone claimed the guy maphacks and all kick the accused maphacker, is it a legit votekick because the majority voted? No. It is abuse.
Absolutely. However, this is a different circumstance and I have actually never seen someone in my 8 years of DotA be kicked on the spot because of MH accusation. I was focusing on players that are ruining games and wasting good ENT players times, causing them to join other leagues, reduce exposure of the league, and lose the league revenue.

I dont see the problem with this whole votekick thing. If the user feeds on purpose or ignores to learn/to take the advice (which is of course no yelling!), then you are free to kick.

I will take this into consideration if I ever get banned again.

If he tries but fails, then a votekick is not needed nor acceptable.

Trying 7 times and dying 7 times in 13 minutes is unacceptable as well because the noob is wasting 9 other players time. Once again I am looking at extreme situations where the feeding is clearly out of hand.

I agree that noobs should be able to be kicked in certain situations. Civ wars is dead because when 5 good players are in the lobby and one noob joins, the team with the noob is forced to leave rather than the noob being removed.

Excellent non-DotA related point, The same thing happens in DotA. However, instead of the team leaving they are forced to play out a game in which they already lost, or they !FF, or they AFK in base until they lose

Similarly in Dota, if 9 players feel 1 player is ruining their gaming experience by feeding noob - that is almost as bad as it being ruined by a game ruiner.

Yes

That being said, removing votekick all together is definitely not the right way to go about things. Votekick is required to remove afks/intentional feeders.

I don't want to see it gone either, but too many people are getting banned as a result and these are good loyal ENT players. It's like protecting the rights of the noob vs the rights of good players to enjoy good dota games in ENT.

[TO_CARRY_OR_NOT]

ENT is not about being good at games. ENT is for everyone, including people who doesn't really play that well. This is a general rule we have, and we intend on enforcing it, even though you might not like it or not.

You broke a rule, got banned for it, and now you want US to change the rule, so you can abuse votekick again, in the near future.
Removing votekick would be worse though, don't know if you considered the posibility then.

If you want to play in games where you meet more skilled people, i suggest you make a suggestion for how, that is going to happen. However this suggestion will not go through, since all people are welcome here.

I don't think you read all of my points, I don't want you to remove the warning so I can abuse vote kick. . . my main focus was this; I just want to avoid games where severely awful players ruin the fun of the game for 9 other people. That they ruin the fun so much, all 9 of the players want this awful player to be kicked. That is what I am lobbying for.

I will try and gain support from other members to see if we can get a ballot initiate going or something.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he was 0-7-0. He was 1-2-0/1-3-0 when you kicked him. Makes me wonder if you even considered whether the ban was fair or not for 2 seconds... And also, the kick was at 8:51, not 13 mins, as you can clearly see in the ban request.

You were calling him shit and wanting to kick him after his very first death. You are not a "good ent player"...

Saying that votekick should be OK if a majority wants it is ridiculous. So, should 8 friends who want to play an inhouse of sorts in ENT be able to kick a player off each team ingame? Should 8 players be able to kick someone because they don't like his name? (It does not take 9 to votekick, by the way).

[-lothlorien]

"let there be justice though the world perish"

To open such a door would clearly do more harm than good. I think players would get quite creative to kick people they dont like.

[TO_CARRY_OR_NOT]

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he was 0-7-0. He was 1-2-0/1-3-0 when you kicked him. Makes me wonder if you even considered whether the ban was fair or not for 2 seconds... And also, the kick was at 8:51, not 13 mins, as you can clearly see in the ban request.

I was not using my game as an example, I was using a generally extreme example that happens to all of us at least once a week. My ban was legitimate and I accept it.

You were calling him shit and wanting to kick him after his very first death. You are not a "good ent player"...

Saying that votekick should be OK if a majority wants it is ridiculous. So, should 8 friends who want to play an inhouse of sorts in ENT be able to kick a player off each team ingame? Should 8 players be able to kick someone because they don't like his name? (It does not take 9 to votekick, by the way).

You are taking my words and then taking it to the extreme. How often does the average dota player have 8 friends that they join an in-house with. In this instance, those people should be punished. However, this is a completely irrelevant example.

The moderators do not seem to like this idea, so I will take screen shots that show that people want to support vote kick against severe noobs. I will be back to post to show that YOUR members want this vote kick ban gone. Protecting rights of 0-10 players should not be a priority.

[TO_CARRY_OR_NOT]

"let there be justice though the world perish"

To open such a door would clearly do more harm than good. I think players would get quite creative to kick people they dont like.

Politicians get creative to gain support for their cause in a democracy. The same principles should be applied at any organizational level.

[Stealer]

Politicians get creative to gain support for their cause in a democracy. The same principles should be applied at any organizational level.

So because my siblings and I want to not go to school we shouldn't have to since its a 3:2 vote ?

I don't see any reason to reform votekick to allow for kicking bad players. If you want that functionality you should argue for a 'high-elo' only dota bot (idk if this exists) and have it allow votekicking of bad players.

Second, if you never attempt to teach the bad player you have no justification for kicking them. You are literally either going to drive players away (which decreases player base for ent = bad) or they are just going to keep joining games and 'ruining' them by being bad.
This is the reason why you can't always kick for feeding, its not intentional feeding if they don't know any better but if you attempt to teach them and they refuse to try to improve it becomes feeding.