Appeal

[AvadaKedavra]

So you're seriously gonna ignore everything I wrote, and say I basically team killed. This is beyond absurd.

Juba, Ace and Guennter did not understand what I did, and mistakenly thought it was done to ruin the game. This is not true (nore doesnt seem to get this, but diablo/mick thankfully does). They didnt understand it, so they reported it. I explain myself, mods agree I didnt tk, but 1 mod says I should have been banned, because my team not understanding my play, and me not communcating it better = team kill. There is zero logic in this. I did not tk, I am guilty of low communication, absolutely. But so is X player, and Y player, and Z player, from time to time. And they don't get any sort of warning or punishment. But nore is going to ignore this, and said I tk, fair enough. Diablo/Mick this is where I need you -.-

[supersexyy]

Pretty clear that Avada didn't sell to TK.

The fact that you can get banned for a play that is not a TK is quite absurd.

Rules are designed to stop people purposely ruining games, this clearly isn't in that vicinity.

Now you are appealing and not even admitting any type of guilt or poor communication. This sounds to me that you think you did absolutely nothing wrong. If that is the case, then you can forget about getting a reduction.

[pewpew lasergun]

this is ridiculous, writing a novel ?

be objective. he didnt break any rule, mis-communication/ misundestanding with his team is what happened. no ill intent to ruin game.
i hardly see how this is bannable in the first place.
as mickey or diablo_ said gameplay strategy falls outside the scope of a mod's duty, unless someone is purposely ruining a game.

Although i personally disapprove of this strategy, it is not a rule break.
I think its best for the future, to have a rule that the mod who banned, cannot process the appeal.

[FadingSuns]

@Nore

You said yourself to Ava:
"You may appeal this if you think that you are being unfairly punished."

He did exactly this, appealing cause he thinks the ban is unfair. So why do you now say that his appeal will be denied if he doesn't admit that he has done something wrong?

Also, where has he been warned for the exact same thing? If you mean the thread ace linked (viewtopic.php?f=85&t=95423) this was something different. It was about Avada asking his team for selling all towers as a form of !ff which happened regularly for a time and was annoying/demoralizing for some people.


About the current case. It is farily obvious Avada didn't try to TK and he thought that his tower selling is the best chance to win the game. I haven't yet watched the replay and cannot say if I agree with that thinking or not, but seeing that he was by far the best player in his team (and currently one of the best players in LIHL) it would be silly to say it was a bad idea and to punish him for that.
So the selling itself should totally not be punished imo, but the lack of communication about it is not good. As nore said selling towers is a drastic move and you should always ask for an ok from your team (or at least 1 or 2 oks from them). If anything this lack of communication should be punished, in which case 2 days seem to be too long.

what the hell u wrote? by far the best player so he has the right to do what? Pure shit league this is gona become if these noob movements can be done without any punishment. And i dont give a shit about ur thoughts but i consider myself a way better player in any posible thing tan this guy that is just depressive every single game. Seems that when he says "game is lost" he makes everything posible to tk and man, its fking free for him idk why.

[FadingSuns]

To everyone that says "its fair tactic". Please link me one single fking game when avada sells all and he wins?

PURE BS

[FadingSuns]

Also I would much appreciate u talk to ace about reporting me, explain to him that selling towers to push is a legit strategy, and warn him too be more careful with these bs reports when he disagrees with a play. Seriously...!

Ok in this case it was Guennter who reported me, but It could as well have been ace.

Im happy the mods reached a more logic conclusion to the whole sell ordeal, but im not quite satisfied. I had to waste a lot of time and energy, write an entire essay, to explain why I sold 800 dead value and pushed instead. This is lihl, and if I have to worry about reports every single time I do anything that doesn't quite sit right with some1, then I would have to second guess every other move I make (especially considering I do "unorthodox" stuff from time to time)

I would REALLY appreciate some effort to preemptively avoid these situations. Ace has a history of reporting me a lot, complain about me alot etc, whenever he doesn't understand why I do something. I mean if I have to go through this much trouble every time I sell and push, etc. then that seems very unfair to me. The report probably took guennter 2 min. to make, and I've probably wasted hours reading, writing, seeking out mods, defend myself, etc. just to get a fair treatment, for making a STANDARD play.

Its free to lie nowadays. I have done 1 single report in my life and it was to u. What history of reporting u a lot i got? Is it only me who thinks that is deppressive to play with a guy that gives up pre lvl 5 every single game that doesnt develope as he would desire? I clearly understand ur intentions to say ur wanna do something usefull, but u just stop talk and sell and and go 7/9, for waht? to cover ur tk u push but then u do nothing else, not a single call, not a single Word. Is that really the correct pro play? Not even my 2 years baby can sell all towers and press the lumberjack button? and we forgive this BS just cuz he is "best player"? Fking annoying shit happens all the games and we just forgive the tker? OKKKKKKKKKKKKK

[Nore]

Quite simply, for anyone who wants to dispute what happened this game, go and watch the replay and see how he handled the game; this was no strategy, this was purely him playing solo and not even giving a care in the world how his team felt. Refusing to teamplay is a rulebreak, and that to me is indisputable, since not a single person on his team said it was cool with them, or that they agreed. Watch the replay @supersexyy before you make any assumptions, as you do not seem to understand the context in which this happened.

To the blind eye, it looks like he did nothing, but tell that to the 3 people he played with that this upset.. or any of the other guys who have reported him. Do you see any other reports for anything like this? I don't think so.. but for some reason, now I am "absurd" for trying to prevent more stuff like this from happening.. Rather sad imo. But, you still were granted your appeal, and I never even denied it to begin with. I just wanted you to give some sort of indication that you will not be continuing down this path. Is that so bad? I am pretty sure his team would appreciate it, and anyone else he has done this to.

[pewpew lasergun]

this is different ace from what he did before. he did not sell to end a losing game.
I did not watch the replay but that seems the consensus among all people who have commented

Anyway avada regardless of what happened, nore is a mod you should accept his opinion.
just say that you will inform your team next time before selling, get unbanned and move on.

[FadingSuns]

Pew i was on this game on his team, i know what i saw

[Krayyzie]

Not just for this case, but in overall for those kind of situations, may I ask the mods what is the biggest offence is?

If you leave a game for the first time, you get a 7-8 day ban, you loose 21 elo and all other players gain 3 elo each

If you give up a game the other way, sell all units becaue you think game is over and be quiet rest of game, repeated offence, your teammates loose 15 elo each, you lose 15 elo insead of 21, and you get a 2 day ban?

To be option 2 is a heavier offence than ragequitting as it burns more elo from your allies And you waste even more time for players in game. IF someone gets banned for this, 25% of ban duration compared to ragequit and you lose less elo, even on a repeated offence?

[Psyclone]

I don't know, the approval of his appeal seems so wrong to me. In many aspects.

[n1ll3]

I don't know, the approval of his appeal seems so right to me. In many aspect!

[dweiler]

Since there still seems to be discussion about the outcome, I will try to explain why this was the outcome, although it may be technical and long to explain every step.

In this case, since we ruled out the 'teamkill' part, the question was about communication, should Avada have communicated that he was going to sell the towers?

Of course, ideally Avada shares everything he does and people know all. To claim Avada's communication here was 'perfect' is absurd and of course you can put down some arguments why it was better to share this information. He also acknowledged that and so far no discussion.

It is, however, a different thing to say his lack of communication is punishable. In general, we moderators leave communication to the team. We are not here to decide exactly what and what should not be spoken about. If people fail to communicate properly, they will lose the game and learn to communicate. It is a system that heals itself.

However, there is one part about communication that needs to be followed. That is if you fail to communicate 'game-changing' actions that affects all of your team. For example, if you send without communication, or if you decide to go suicider even though you are the 'fattest' in your team and logically expected to be holder. Those are extreme circumstances in which you leave your allies unable to make a proper strategy.

The question here was if Avada committed such an action. To me, it is pretty clear he did not. He was expected to 'suicide' with his dead lane, he said to his team 'I will just push', there was no one who disagreed and his lane acted pretty much as could be expected. There was no change of strategy and his action did not change the game (since he would have leaked every round anyway and they would have died on 15 anyway).

It is not up to the moderators to rule about strategies, if selling was the best strategy, et cetera. We just looked at this case technically and there is really not much to discuss about for me if you look at it in this way. That being said, I think @Avada, you should take @Nore 's (and several other players') advice with you, because you are sometimes walking the line with communication and you can fall down the other side as well some time like you did before.

@Krayyzie, I agree the unvouch periods are skewed at this moment (quitting games 7/8 days, AFK 2 days, dc only dc-pen even though the outcome -and sometimes even the intention- is the same, seems inappropriate). We are re-evaluating unvouch times as we speak..

[Diablo_]

I think Mick has made our judgement pretty clear. Selling towers itself isn't banable as long as it isn't used to teamkill - and as we see it Avada had zero intention to TK (and I believe almost all people posting here agree on this).
So the selling cannot be punished.

What was not very cool was the lack of communication about this action, but since he announced that he will just push and no one said anything against it and it was pretty irrelevant whether he is very low or 0 value his action was not too unexpected and also had no real negative impact on the game. It was a simple trade-off between more leaks vs more lumber which basically happens everytime someone "suicides" - just the extent was a bit more extreme here.

And Avada also cannot really be blamed for that his team ultimately didn't send at all. Calls are made by the team and if no one feels like communicating it makes no sense to solely blame Avada for it.

Since this is just going circles anyway, I'll close the thread now.