!ffcancel or !unff or !ff vote expires

[nabo.]

Hello ENT community,

I would like to suggest to implement !ffcancel or !unff command unvoting or canceling ur vote OR have an expiry time since the time !ff vote was initiated. !ff is a similar case of !draw. It is a voting system where ally members agree to forfeit or give up the game due to their game circumstances (Game ruin or given up or no hope).

I have never thought about it. But, there seems to be few cases where people may abuse our current !ff system.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=26993
In this replay, 3/4 people in a team !ff votes (ealy-mid phase of the game)and the game goes on without the final person agreeing to !ff. At the end of the game when there seems to be a comeback or hope, the final person decides to type !ff abusing our current !ff system. Since !ff is a vote, I do believe there should be an unvote !ff command or an expiry time for the votes.

If such cases are looked upon as an abuse of !ff system, violators should be bannable and we should implement this idea.

Post ur thoughts.

[Fangorn]

It's a command that ain't needed. This is why;
If a player decides to type !ff, he is giving up on the game. If this player /these players type !ff too early, it's their own fault, hence their own problem. This is why !ff shouldn't be used too often, comebacks in pubs are more than possible.
!ff also sends a strong message to their teammates, that they are in fact giving up on the game. Either type !ff, or do your best. The case mentioned ain't abuse at all, as the players have CONFIRMED the !ff previously.

The !draw command on the other hand is totally different. This command can be abused in this way:
One player leaves/dc in the beginning of the game. Everyone, except some players on the 5-man team types !draw. The game goes on, and the 5-man team is losing. Now the ones who didn't type !draw in the beginning, types it. The game who was won by the 4-man team, is suddenly turned to a draw. This is abuse, but can be countered by !undraw'ing

[nabo.]

Honestly, I have previously asked to remove !ff...did not work well. You can try suggesting again on my behave and many others who think alike @fangorn.

Yes, !ff means "i give up" and it should only be used if u have really given up. !ff does give a strong message and depletes the team's overall spirit or motive.

But what if (similarly to ur draw example), one person does not !ff and the game continues on for over 10,20,30 minutes and ur team somehow makes a comeback and the last person who didnt !ff types !ff for the fun of it or as a troll?

Since !ff does mean "i give up" and if one person does not give up and the game continues on...what will motivate the others to continue to play on instead of sitting or waiting at base or farming at woods? If ur team is doing better after u typed !ff, u should still be able to cancel ur !ff if u see a glimpse of hope or chance of comeback. !ff is a voting system. U vote as a team to forfeit. If the whole team does not agree, u should have the chance to reflect and change ur opinion like any of the other vote commands we have.

[Fangorn]

Doesn't make much sense. This whole "issue" you come up with is easily solved by communication. If the game is going bad in a easymodegame or whatnot, you can try to ask your fellow american players, "let's ff?". Depending on the replies, you can either play better, or give up.

If you experience "unfairness" with this command, simply stop rage-type it after you died in a clash, and spam the allychat "ff for fucks sake guys, we got no chance of winning this game".

Personally, I have NEVER used the !ff command. It is much better to try and motive my team to play more defensively

[Aghnaar]

I think I've seen another version of !ff on some bots, where when a player types the command, his teammates can vote !yes for like 2-3 min period of time. If they don't, then the vote is cancelled and u have to start all over. Maybe u find this more convenient???

[nabo.]

@fangorn
Not sure why u think the problem is "ppl wont agree to !ff"?? Problem im presenting is when ppl !ff and they make a comeback and the last person who did not ff decides to troll and type !ff ending the game while others did not want to.

Anything can be solved with effective communication. Intentions of trolling isnt solved by communication ingame. Why? Trolling is for personal amusement or idiocy. It has nothing to do with winning or teamwork.

My suggestion has nothing to do with fairness, but a case of possible abuse. I have provided link to a certain brq...so, should the violator be banned or not?

I have already told u tat i suggested to remove !ff. if no ff...i can feed myself a whole lot more kill meats. Anyway, it was rejected with a reason and if u care so much go search up the history files.

@aghnaar
I dont see the problem with !ff having a time expiry.

[Aghnaar]

I dont see the problem with !ff having a time expiry.

thats what i said, it would be nice to have time expiry on forfeit like they do in HoN for example, so ppl can't abuse it

[iightfyre]

I've always felt that there should be an !unff command for the honest players.

But to play Devil's Advocate...

What if I were a troll and had the option of typing !ff + !unff. Couldn't I use this to send "fake messages" to the opponent that we are thinking about giving up? Kinda sneaky and I can see it being used and abused a lot tbh. "Hey, let's 4 of us type FF and make them think they won. In 30 seconds we launch a massive attack and all !unff"

I'm an LTD player, not a Dota player - and I can see it being used a lot in LTD games to troll or give false messages to the opponent.

Just my thoughts.. it could be abused. Trolls may act stupid, but they are usually quite craft

[JunZzi]

Well unfortunately its like anything, We give nice things and there can be the possibility of it being abused.

[nabo.]

@iightfyre if 4 ppl !ff, isnt that game over? I understand what you meant with ur example, but is this not the same case for !draw + !undraw? We can still surprise as in ur example with our current !ff, if 3 ppl !ff and send. Also in ltd, whether u get sends or not depends on type of towers+levels more than !ff message. I can kinda see the abuse u mention, but I think having !unff or an expiry time since !ff was initiated has more good cases than bad.

[iightfyre]

I think a vote with an expiry (like votekick) would be less "trollable" and I would definitely support this.

[Fangorn]

@nabo Simply stop typing !ff in rage, and it's solved T.T

[nabo.]

@fangorn Yes, rage kids misuse !ff and the concept of forcefully retiring a game before one of the bases is destroyed is something I do not agree with, but my past suggestion of removing !ff completely has been rejected. Ur solution of "dont use !ff" or removing !ff completely is an alternative option which has been rejected by uakfb. Stop making me repeat this...

None of the bot's commands are actually needed to play dota. I have simply presented a case which has been brought to my attention while taking care of brqs. You have given ur thoughts to the !ff rule and to my suggestion of implementing !unff or !ff having a expiry time. I am not here to argue between misusage vs abuse. Thank you for ur response and that is all that I need from you.

[Fangorn]

The current commands, !score, !stats and !sd makes the game more enjoyable. So stating "none of the bots commands are actually needed to play dota" is rubbish.
I'll refer to my first post, there is no need to implent !unff, just don't type !ff and motivate your team instead. This whole topic is rediculous.

When will this case be replied anyway? viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26830

Far more important---

[child]

I think I've seen another version of !ff on some bots, where when a player types the command, his teammates can vote !yes for like 2-3 min period of time. If they don't, then the vote is cancelled and u have to start all over. Maybe u find this more convenient???

this is a damn good idea