[Rules] [Enfo FFB Edition] HR Jump should not be ban-able.

[Coffee_Culture]

This is in response to the recent ban appeal thread which banned a user for using the hero Haunted Remnant's ability to go to the other side of the map.

This "glitch" has been around for a long time. 99% of the times that I have seen this happen the HR just feeds experience because of her low health and many ways to deal with her.

I don't think banning a player just because someone does not know how to deal with a certain aspect of the game is the correct, or mature, response. Instead, an inquiry could have been made about the types of things you could have done in that situation. Another way this situation could have been dealt with is to suggest a balance change, reducing the amount of damage HR can deal to enemy heroes. This map is still in beta, so it would be understandable if something needed to be balanced.

There are many forms of offence in this game. For example, the Hypnotist has the ability to kill enemy heroes using his abilities. Like the HR, there are multiple ways to deal with this.

Below is a list of some ways to deal with Haunted Remnant once she has jumped over to your side of the map.

How Spellbringer can deal with HR:
-Battle Sphere (Stuns hero for 10 seconds.)
-Limb Disruption (Greatly slows movement, reducing the damage dealt dramatically)
-Slow Projectiles (As her arrows are considered projectiles. Removes projectile tracking as well. Available on -d1.)
-Time Warp (Warps projectiles past you, essentially ignoring all damage. Available on -d1.)
-Darkrift (Can use for fodder or to do damage. Remember that HR can't select who she attacks. Available on -d1.)
-Glythtide's Gift (Slows, etc.)
-Grazhir's Effigy (See darkrift. Available on -d1.)

Well Rounded Heroes that can deal with HR:
-Toxia (Slows, damages)
-Cabalist (Stun, damage, also his inate might work)
-Entropost (Stun from both his F and G, slow from X, damage from all, inate to run away)
-Theif (Stun, easy kill with X/V)
-Ranger (Out ranges her, armor reduction applies to HR)
-Haunted Remnant (equal ground as enemy HR)
-Faceless (Easy kill with F/G/X/C/V)
-Eye (Ulti, armor reduction, F does decent damage)

Combat Heroes that can deal with HR:
-Paladin (Heal, a lot of health to tank)
-Grake (High armor, inate deflects projectiles, G might work as well)
-Barbarian (Stun, good damage and attack speed, decent str gain to tank)
-Enforcer (F/X both give amazing survivability, V will mess HR up big time)
-Admiral (Amazing damage)
-Tauren (Good tank, good damage)
-Weaponsmith (Stun, good damage)
-Sk'aar (Easily tanks, and projectiles should proc pets to spawn)
-Blood Dancer (Fast, V will make for easy kill)

Caster Heroes that can deal with HR:
-Lich (Pets can take up attacks and can kill without putting the rest of the team in danger)
-Evoker (F/G combo damage, inate slows to a stop)
-Moon Mage (F/V is more than enough damage to stop her)
-Warrior Mage (F for damage, G for lockdown, V/C/G also can be used on her)
-Archdruid (Pets can tank, do damage, no danger to druid)
-Tempest (Heal, Shield, damage from X and V)
-Gizella (F can permastun, V for easy kill)
-Mentalist (Can easily tank with F/G/V combo)
-Naga (F for damage, G to out run, X to stun, C for debuff, V for damage/heal)

Support Heroes that can deal with HR:
-Cleric (F/X/C/V for survivability)
-Hypno (F/G for pets, X to remove all damage from her, V to keep her in place, C for added spice)
-Empath (Insta heal, heals team, armor bonus)
-Defender (Stuns, survivability with G, damage with V, X will not work)
-Bard (X does not remove damage but it will still slow, invulerable summons, lots of free spellbringer mana)
-Gogo (Armor debuff, slow, C works, V in comjunction with other heroes)

Items that can deal with HR:
-Wand of the West Wind (cyclone works on enemy heroes)
-Force edge (mobility)
-Pride's Downfall (should OHKO if HR is using ulti)
-Rampart shield (casts defend)
-Nimsha (debuff)
-Skullcleaver (crit)
-Any blink boots (mobility)

I am sure there are more options, but these were the first ones to come to mind. As you can see, every single hero on every difficulty has the ability to deal with a ranger (some better than others, yes). Also remember it will be 3 or 4 heroes vs the one HR.

There are many forms of offence in this game, some of them more popular than others. So, in summary:
Q: Is this an abuse of game mechanics?
A: No.

Q: Does this give a player an unfair advantage?
A: No.

Q: Can HR jumping over to my side be dealt with? On very easy?
A: Yes and yes.

*hides*

[Strikest]

I agree with this. As mapmaker, I introduced this hero to be able to have this capability; players should not be banned for using an intended feature of a hero. And, as you can see by op's post, it is balanced quite well.

[aRt)Y]

I think @matdas was discussing about it.

Since there're no rules for enfos (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4), we should perhaps take the opportunity to make some. :0

[matdas]

Its not about countering the hero. Its about having no way of preventing the hero once in the dark part of the map. Yes you can counter the hero once it REACHES your side of the map. BUT there is nothing you can do while the hero is in the process of coming over. You can dark rift, cant image it. etc. You can stun, and slow the process, but you cannot actually kill the hero via process of coming over.

Hence the glitch of not being able to be targetted or killed while in the dark part of the map.

PS: dont try to dark rift there in a pub, you will waste your spell bringers mana.

There are many forms of offence in this game, some of them more popular than others. So, in summary:
Q: Is this an abuse of game mechanics?
A: No.

Yes, abuse of game mechanics

Q: Does this give a player an unfair advantage?
A: No.

Yes, cannot be targeted by dark rift, image spell from spell bringer. The units just dont spawn when in the dark area.

Q: Can HR jumping over to my side be dealt with? On very easy?
A: Yes and yes.

Yes it can die easily, but that is not the point.

Unless you can point out what hero's have a chance at killing the hero while its in transit across the map, then please do so. For i don't see any possible way you can do anything when HR is midway to your side.

[Strikest]

Matdas, I don't see your argument? While Haunted Remnant is crossing the map, she is not helping her team, putting them in a bad position(Causing them to be at a disadvantage gold/exp wise, since she is not helping defend). Sure there's no way to counter her if she's in the middle of the map, but she can't do anything either, except go to a side.

[matdas]

That is the hole point of this. You can't do anything to prevent her from moving across that part of the map. Hence, glitch.

[Strikest]

You can't do anything to prevent a lot of things that your opponents can do...

[Coffee_Culture]

I think what he is saying is that the main issue with HR crossing over isn't really a problem due to the fact that she can go to the other side of the map but more so the fact that nothing much can be done while HR is actually in the middle "void" area (besides stuns/slows/etc of course).

Now lets take this to the extreme. If a HR uses Shadow Rush to get herself into the void and then just stays there, nothing can really be done about it. The only thing that comes to mind to take her down would be something like Pride's Downfall. I would consider this something that could potentially be ban-worthy.

However, it should only take a HR around 10 seconds to get from side to side (level 10 Shadow Rush). There are spells in this map that can give a higher invulnerability duration than this.

[Strikest]

Also keep in mind that there's a difference being invulnerable while fighting creeps and being invulnerable while not being able to fight anything, in which case you would be harming your team.

[matdas]

She becomes damage immune "void" area. Regardless if the player is hurting the team or not. The map is making her invulnerable, not any skills.

None of you get the point about not doing anything to help your team. That is not what this is about. It is about not being able to damage the hero while in the "void" area.

[Coffee_Culture]

Also keep in mind that there's a difference being invulnerable while fighting creeps and being invulnerable while not being able to fight anything, in which case you would be harming your team.

Not being able to help your team while you are hiding in the void is another reason why it should be ban-worthy, yes, but I still don't think that jumping over to the other side is. The short time it takes to get from side to side to go feed experience to the other team use the offensive aspect of this hero should not hinder your team much, and potentially being able to gain experience for your team can more than make up for it.

The map is making her invulnerable, not any skills [...] It is about not being able to damage the hero while in the "void" area.

What about if the HR uses the hero selection area as a platform? There are just as many ways to use offense to her there as there is while she is on her own side of the map and the HR never touches the void.

[matdas]

What about if the HR uses the hero selection area as a platform? There are just as many ways to use offense to her there as there is while she is on her own side of the map and the HR never touches the void.

That would cause even more problems...

[Coffee_Culture]

How so?

[matdas]

i havent tested it yet, but possibly more hero's for that player.

[Strikest]

I can tell you right now that that won't happen
The hero select trigger only works when you have a shade enter the circle.