Albi

[Chrono[diox]]

I am making a formal complaint against the moderator Albi. At first I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe he made a mistake but the way he has handled this unban request makes him both come off as rude and as if he could care less about the problem at hand. In the end I was unbanned, but it seemed as more of a wave of the hand to not have it looked into further when the problem wasn't my 12 hour warning ban that was about to expire, the problem was the fact that he unjustly banned every person in a game for votekick abuse. First of all here is the original ban request for your review: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=108640&p=427885&hilit=tomoya#p427885

As you can see this person was kicked from a game because he was either intentionally feeding, or ghosting to make some unknown rival on his team lose, and lose elo. He goes to the same spot and gets killed by the same guy every 30 seconds, and on the final death does not even try to make an escape. Just keeps neutraling while an enemy hero kills him. He was 0-5 in the first 4 minutes, and it was very clear where this was going. That is why every single player in the game decided that he was RUINING the game, and vote kicked him. I was only the last person to vote kick, but I definitely could see the reasoning why they could feel this way. It should be known that if all players in a game, even those on the opposing team, feel someone is game ruining that they can kick said player without fear or being banned. Is that not a valid reason for votekick? Now here we have another unban request from the same game, a player who was on the OPPOSING team that would have like won the game had he not kicked the feeder on my team, and here is how he feels: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=108773&p=427971&hilit=tomoya#p427971

Now this brings me to my final point. I have always been a good community member and never have had to make a staff complaint, but when I submitted for a proper review of this the moderator did not even answer many of my questions and did little to resolve this issue. He instead just unbanned me and closed the post as a shoe fly don't bother me method. This is not good moderator behavior and will only result in future conflicts of similar incidents, there needs to be clear cut rules to follow and topics need to be resolved in a way so that both parties can understand what was done wrong and what can be done to prevent these in the future. Here is my unban topic: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=108784

As you can see there was no discussion on whether or not the reasoning was just. He just simply assumed he was right and 9 other players all had no valid reason to kick him and they just enjoy kicking people out of games for fun. All that was stated was don't follow other peoples decisions make your own... I did make my own decision and I explained that pretty thoroughly in the topic and I was stating the fact that I was the last because I took the time to consider these options and made a decision based on the evidence just as EVERY other player in the game had done. It was unanimous. Thanks for looking into this further, and I apologies for any inconvenience.

[matdas]

I don't see a reason for this complaint. Your ban was lifted. The kick was an abusive kick. There was no purpose feed in that game.

[aRt)Y]

The mod's kick?

[Albi]

As matdas said, there was no purpose feed in that game, and in your appeal I told you to respond for your own actions.
I asked you to tell me what rule he broke and you said he was "feeding", which is not a rule. Also beeing the last to vote doesn't change the fact that you voted. You can't expect every player to be as good as you in the game, or expect them to do good in every game.

[matdas]

@art)y it was a vote kick abuse that the player was in. He is complaining about why he was banned. This complaint has no validity to it.

[CluelessFlamer]

If I understand correctly this dispute is caused by a disagreement over the fact wether a player fed on purpose or without intention. As noone can definitely answer that question it is open to interpretation. 2 mods came to another conclusion than the OP. My impression is that the OP is unhappy with the interpretation of the original ban request. I am a big fan of "in dubio pro reo" and I guess so are a lot of the mods. Keeping that in mind this complaint seems pointless to me. People have different perceptions.

The topic made me think about the current vk rules though. How about implementing a rule that unanimous votekicks are not considered a violation. Before you say anything, yes, such a rule may be exploited; but for that to happen 9 people would have to conspire which seems unlikely on public bots.

Have a nice day!

[Chrono[diox]]

The reason for this complaint is because the moderator is just assuming that he was kicked abusively. The player was intentionally feeding, AKA throwing, or game ruining. He kept going to the same jungle camp to feed the same player and did not even try to escape death, just stood there while the other player killed him. That why it was unanimous that he be kicked from the game. Later when I was opening an unban request the moderator did not take the time to see why 9 other players thought he was game ruining. He also did not answer any of the questions being asked. Why do we have a vote kick feature if not to vote kick a player when everyone thinks someone is ruining a game? Is that not reasonable? There was no room for discussion he just assumes he is right and that everyone else in the game magically conspired together and kicked this guy for no reason and abused the vote kick system. The guy was ruining the game for everyone, simple as that. Otherwise everyone wouldn't have kicked him. Its not rocket science. And he keeps saying oh being the last person to vote kick doesn't make a difference... yes actually it does. When you see that someone is ruining the game for every other person in the game you think that doesn't influence a decision? Are you braindead? How about the fact that I am worried now also that I could be banned for NOT vote kicking someone who is game ruining? We all know that's happened before.

And I second the vk rule implantation for unanimous votekicks suggested by CluelessFlamer

Part of the problem is there is no black and white when it comes to game ruining. Its an area of shaded gray to be interpreted by the players. How does one really know if the games being ruined by one player? Well I usually judge whether or not everyone is in agreement that he is ruining their experience, and weigh that with my own opinion. You can't just go giving out game wide bans for vote kick abuse one day, and then give out game wide refusal to vote kick bans another. It just creates a tornado of confusion and miscommunication on what is really defined by ENT rules as game ruining. The rules state "Do not feed on purpose." Well how does one really know another's intentions? You can't. You have to judge whether it looks like it is or isn't. And if everyone in the game came to the same conclusion, then I think the moderator needs to think twice about banning the entire game because we are only trying to follow the rules you ask us to. And that's another part of the problem, I never know who's telling the truth in the moment because everyone claims you will be banned if you do or don't vote kick this person. And the people who lie about it almost always go unpunished so they continue to do it. Half the time you end up getting banned like this and its never really explained clearly they just ask you to copy and paste some very ambiguous rules on the subject and off you go. You have to be clear and cut and give discussion and reasoning when players appeal and ask for answers. I don't care what the rules are I will follow them but they're obviously not very well understood if entire games are getting banned. And when I appealed and asked the questions the moderator in question offered no discussion or answers he just unbanned and closed the topic. Why bother banning in the first place if all you have to do is ask for an unban? My only thought would be to make sure the rules are understood, but that would require you to explain the questions at hand and any conflict in questioning. I am not expecting this guy to removed from mod or anything, I know he is a new mod and he will get better. I am just complaining because he needs to know that he should be doing a better job.

[EdgeOfChaos]

@Chrono[diox] @Albi

So I think it comes down to the last death in the jungle. Specifically at 10:10 replay time. Legion Commander continues attacking creeps while he gets ganked and dies. Whether this was intentional or not, I can't say: maybe it was, or maybe he was typing or something, or maybe he looked away for 5 seconds. I can see why the players kicked him after seeing his death, especially because one player gave a reason for it - that he did nothing while he died.

That said, I think it's definitely possible that the user was trying his best, seeing as he was trying to defend what he did too, saying that he couldn't run and that he would carry later. In cases like these where there it's not certain whether the user is ruining or not, players should not rush to kick, but instead wait to see if the behavior continues. None of his deaths before that were intentional. There wasn't enough evidence yet to say whether he was intentionally feeding or not.

Now more generally about votekick abuse: ENT is a server for new and experienced players alike. The purpose of votekick is to remove users who are violating the rules. You seem to not believe that 9 people can agree to kick someone who is not violating the rules, but they definitely can. If a user is playing badly, it's absolutely possible to convince all the other players to votekick them even though they aren't doing anything wrong. This is why we have the votekick abuse rules the way we do.

I can definitely see your point that votekick abuse rules can be hard to follow, and this is a real issue. A few points from that last paragraph:
- Lying about rule violations is absolutely punishable, as long as you report it. The issue is that people don't bother to report.
- If you think someone is lying, or don't have proof of the violation, you can always ask the other members of the team.
- I do agree that we could give people more of the benefit of the doubt in votekick ban requests.

In this specific game though, I think you give the other votekickers too much credit. From the very first death, a few people were calling for a kick, and one of the people gave as a reason to kick that he is 0-5 (reminder: score is never a reason to kick). As such, I don't think that short bans to the voters is abuse. Much of the player base does not understand the votekick abuse rule, or simply doesn't care, so these bans can teach them their mistake.

[Chrono[diox]]

But that's the problem. You say there wasn't enough evidence yet for him to be intentionally feeding, 9 other players including the OPPOSING team that benefit from said feeding, disagree with you. We feel there was enough compelling evidence. He did not ward after a few deaths. He did not switch tactics after a few deaths. He kept going to the same spot he died 30 seconds ago. He never backed or showed caution when Gondar went missing in the lane. And there was the incident where he didn't bother running away. He did not ask his team for help or listen to advice of other players. That's a ton of evidence for us to oppose your decision. But it comes down to game ruining for me. If everyone in a game feel somebody is ruining the game, they should be able to kick that person. We play for games for fun and its not fun when one person ruins it for everyone. I think the rule mentioned earlier could fix this problem, protecting unanimous decisions. And @edgeofchaos this is how the discussion should have went with albi. This is why I complained.

[matdas]

@chrono[diox] i know what you are coming from. the problem is that players are to quick to assume a bad player is game ruining. Which is why we have these rules. By your logic, since I play games with 4 other players in a 6 player match, and we decide that we want to kick the other 2 player because we have the numbers, that we are protected from the rules. This is exactly what you are saying. You are trying to add in loop holes that players can use to keep themselves from getting banned. A simple solution to this is to not jump the gun, such as these players did. The guy who was getting the kill (pink if i remember correctly) even stated that the guy had no where to go. He was the only one defending him. If this was the other way around, where the player was "too good" and the entire game decided to kick him, is that justifiable? No, its not. There are to many flawed reasons as to why we cannot "protect" the majority rules, rule. That is why we have rules to prevent these abuses. Learn from these, maybe watch the replay afterwards and see that the first 4 deaths were no where close to being feed and the last one as EOC said, could have been typing/looking away for a moment. There just wasn't enough evidence to justify the kick. It happens.

This entire segment will just go in circles. Since this is about abuse of the admin, where there is no abuse to be seen, make a suggestion to get your frustrations out and the admins can comment on it easier than spamming a complaint.

[HazarDous]

~~ You're complaining on Albi because you want him to "do a better job" in the future. However, it also looks like your team could have approached the situation differently in this case by communicating with the player at hand instead of jumping on him and relying on the votekick as a first option rather than last. Perhaps he did die without moving once, so what? Perhaps his mouse bugged for a few seconds, did you ask him before voting !yes ? One instance isn't enough to warrant a kick, and according to EdgeOfChaos' review, that's the only suspicious death he's had.

As matdas said, the fact that 5 or 6 players vote to kick someone doesn't make the kick any more valid.


Anyway, complaint denied, I don't see the slightest sign of abuse or wrongdoing in Albi's actions. Thank you for the input everyone.