Rule Change

[Evil]

Here is the rule you guys have in place.

Abusing votekick: using !votekick to spam or when the victim has not done anything wrong; also refusing to votekick when a player has clearly violated a rule (note: it is possible for a player to ruin the game by both being new _and_ refusing to learn; in this case votekick may be used, but it is up to the players in the game to decide)

I got banned for votekick abuse when a player went 1-9 and was feeding. I did get unbanned and I am happy about that but how does one know when to kick a player for feeding???Sometimes I just don't know where the line is crossed for votekicking being abused or not, everyone does it so a feeder doesn't ruin the game and that was the reason there.

When a player goes 1-9 and runs into 3 players and dies i see that as feeding. So yes i would kick. But i guess i was wrong and i got banned 3 days. Now what if we didn't kick the player that went 1-9 and someone post a request saying that we did not kick the 1-9 feeder we would of gotten banned for not kicking. I feel like this is a lose lose and no matter what happend we were getting banned. I just want to make sure i dont get banned for something like this again cuz i love playing on ENT and getting banned for something i thought i did right isn't cool. So i think there needs to be more guidelines cuz the rules you have now are bad.

Thanks for taking the time and lets try to make this clear so we dont get 7 people banned in one game for this..

Cheers

Link to what my appeal viewtopic.php?f=25&t=15843

Link to ban Request viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15798&p=75050#p75050


Now i3omb i see you highlighted the chat where the player said it is bannable to kick him but to everyone else in the game he is feeding. So if players say that again are we not to kick him? And to be fair he said that way after i voted yes.

[Virulence]

He wasn't being votekicked for feeding though. You were votekicking him for "AFK" when he wasn't.

In addition, the guy could have been having a bad game. Remember he also had a lot of assist kills as well.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Feeding and going 1-9 isn't against the rules if you try your best. Intentionally feeding is against the rules and kickable.
I watched the replay, and the user in question was not intentionally feeding; he badly misjudged the two enemies and made a mistake, this is not kickable.
Kicking noobs is an abuse of the votekick feature.

Having a situation where the team tries to help a player and he actually refuses to learn is VERY rare.. I

[Evil]

I just want to make sure i dont get banned for doing it again or for not doing it. The rules are gray... What you think is feeding might be different from me or to someone else. I understand what you said Edge but i dont like getting banned lol.

[Yondaime]

Then you should have not started a votekick. Simple as that, votekick abuse is exactly as it sounds.

This rule is perfectly fine the way it is you are just unhappy from the result of you being reported and your appeal being denied.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I think his appeal actually got approved here, it was a different guy who got denied.

[Yondaime]

Oops, I denied other people then for vking the guy, guess he got lucky.

[Chunkster]

If someone is being a terrible player and is the lone reason that your team is losing why do you not have the right to votekick at that point? Especially if you've tried helping and the player doesn't get it or just won't do anything you suggest. If it is between kicking someone, who may go 1-10-2 or something and cost you the game, when their record is 0-7-1 and winning a game I can't believe that the majority would prefer to lose the game. Maybe have a below 850 elo bot or something for noobs to play on. Another potential option would have a time limit on the vkick abuse thing. Where you could kick a noob after 15 mins or so and not be punished.

Also when attempting to aid someone who is new to the game the most obnoxious thing is if the player does not type at all or acknowledge anything you are saying/doing/coordinating for the team.

I have played a game where I went 0-6 to start the game and know that that differential is quite hard to come back from especially if you are underleveled and undergeared by that point (from the lack of assists or creep score or whatnot).

Votekicking noobs should be thought of as okay so long as the noob's team is all onboard with the kick. They should have the final say as to who should be on their team.

Chunkster

[matdas]

I could quote and counter everything that you have said but i will leave it at this:

"Votekicking noobs should be thought of as okay so long as the noob's team is all onboard with the kick. They should have the final say as to who should be on their team."

Votekicking noobs is NOT ok. They joined the game to play. Get over it. Everyone has the right to play on the bots as long as they follow the rules. But as you can see, he was clearly not intentionally feeding.

[Chunkster]

I didn't look at that game in particular so I do not know what the "feeder" did or how he did it, so I was not commenting on that game in particular. However if someone goes 0-6 in the first 7 minutes by (being an idiot (not necessarily new)), the game is ruined 98 times in 100. Could that not be classified as game ruining?

But I would like clarification on this point--Also when attempting to aid someone who is playing noobishly the most obnoxious thing is if the player does not type at all or acknowledge anything you are saying/doing/coordinating for the team-- Is that grounds to be kicked?

[bit]

I agree with matdas. We don't have matchmaking, there could be 2.5k and 1k elo in the same team. From your point of view, when someone is, let's say 1-10, he is ruining your game, but if he's just a noob and doing it not on purpose, does he really deserves to be kicked?

if the player does not type at all or acknowledge anything you are saying/doing/coordinating for the team-- Is that grounds to be kicked?

yes, players should know how to communicate, nevermind their noobness. that doesn't mean kick is ok after someone didn't respond once, but if he continuously doing that, i guess team can votekick him

[Yondaime]

I also agree with Matdas, besides we were all noobs at one point so deal with it, if you get a shitty player it happens you rage about it on the inside then attempt to vk them, however that is not the way to deal with it. If they are Intentionally feeding then by all means please go ahead and vk them. Ent is a friendly community we welcome all that come pro or noob, that is why basically we still allow bit to play... jk jk love you bit.

The rule is fine how it stands imho, if you feel like not playing with noobs then dodge the game its that simple.

[child]

I just do not see the logic in this refusal to institute more clear guidelines as to what constitutes "game ruining" which is a bannable offense and a offense u are able to kick for, though. Feeders (unintentional ones) make up a very small minority of players on the server, so why have a rule that 100% protects them and makes the majority have less fun? I get it, as Yondamine is saying, that ENT is trying to be as all-welcoming to players of all skill levels as they can possibly be. I also understand its hard to balance the exclusion of noobs from games against the interests of good players, but I strongly agree with evil and chunkster that the way votekick abuse is defined as of now really harms the experience of the majority of players on ENT.

I am not familiar at all with the game discussed before, i didnt even look, but I think you need to work on the outlines of what constitutes game ruining. I sympathize with nice noobs, even if they feed perhaps 0-3 in 10 minutes i never try to vote kick. I try to help them by warding or giving advice, and I do feel bad for them when people rage them. But a noob (who may or may not also be an asshole who does not listen) who feeds 0-5 or 0-6 within 10-15 mins? Thats a game ruiner right there for the other 9 people, and in my opinion that person should be allowed to be kicked. What about a person who ark farms, refuses to defend towers, and perhaps goes 0-5 in 30 minutes? Same deal in my opinion. In both cases ONE single person's interests (that being protection from vote kick) should not outweigh the other four members of the team or even the other team's right to enjoy a good game

[Yondaime]

Intentional game ruiners, its exactly what it sounds like when you read it. INTENTIONAL GAME RUINERS. This is if they are doing it intentionally, in a game I had people that never helped top lane, i ended up being 0-5 within probably the first ten minutes? Is it my fault somewhat, is it my teams fault as well yes. You can hardly ever blame the one person if they are "feeding" if you did not do anything in the first place to help them or give them advice, then you have no reason to votekick, if it does and goes through then you are abusing the vk command. Basically game ruiners are afk reset, item stealing/destruction, intentional feed. We are all above the age of 12 I hope so we know how to use our common sense.

[child]

Intentional game ruiners, its exactly what it sounds like when you read it. INTENTIONAL GAME RUINERS. This is if they are doing it intentionally, in a game I had people that never helped top lane, i ended up being 0-5 within probably the first ten minutes? Is it my fault somewhat, is it my teams fault as well yes. You can hardly ever blame the one person if they are "feeding" if you did not do anything in the first place to help them or give them advice, then you have no reason to votekick, if it does and goes through then you are abusing the vk command. Basically game ruiners are afk reset, item stealing/destruction, intentional feed. We are all above the age of 12 I hope so we know how to use our common sense.

Well I am sure that I have been 0=5 as well by then , and I agree 90% of the time the other team members are somewhat to blame (bad lane, no mias, no ganks). What I am saying is not that that person should be able to be votekicked at all. BUT, if the person is hypothetically 0-5 or whatever 0-7 at 10-15 mins, does not communicate with team, has not been unlucky or ganked, continues to go back to that lane, or doesn't listen at all, --all of those supplementary factors considered -- I'm saying that should be votekickable. Especially if the person feeding is an asshole as well.

Not including supplementary conditions for, or more clearly defining, what constitutes "game ruining" I'm saying is the problem. I think that all of the conditions I listed above that exist when a person is "feeding" should allow the team to vote kick the person.

The thing I am most sick of, absolutely furious about, is when a person meets ALL of those conditions in addition to feeding (especially the asshole part) but is not necessarily "intentionally" feeding based on game play and moves -- and the other team (especially stackers or smurfs) uses that as an excuse not to kick when they know they'd lose without that feed.


edit: and also i would like to add that some players need to learn not to play in games that are above their skill level. go to apem euro or play AI. how is it not inconsiderate for a feeding noob to knowingly join a high level and otherwise even game and proceed to ruin it for one team and then not have the decency to leave?