[0104] Goblin Advanced Walls

[1337hamburger]

I think that goblin is fairly overpowered as it stands, arguably the best towers, arguably the best walls, and arguably the best hunter. I would love to see goblin wall evasion be a thing of the past. Also on the topic of morph evasion, the main part that makes his evasion strong isn't the damage block imo, but the fact that titan can miss the first hit(s) (no movement speed decrease). If you compare morphs evasion to earth pandas block it is clear which is better. If morphs eva is nerfed it will just cause no one to stay in builder for any reason but to gold (if it is a game in which the player gets the gold to get beast form).

[Burn]

I'm not saying that changing evasion to damage block is a bad idea, I'm saying it's arbitrary, since RNG averages out when sample size is large, especially when your average game titans don't stack enough damage to make RNG a factor. I hate RNG myself, but in all my games, I have never cursed RNJesus for giving me bad rolls on Goblin evasion walls, but so many times on Morphling/Tauren. Especially Morphling.

The second part of this post is me trying to say that Goblin walls do not need a nerf, but his hunter definitely does.

I don't look at Goblin and be like oh look, Goblin is OP, we need to nerf him. Especially his walls. He also has a 30 tower limit, which makes him a pretty average solo baser, unless you are willing to deto a 40 food worker for more towers.

His tower is low damage AoE with low range that cost 1g each, which doesn't really work when double basing because of his low DPS low range towers AoE doesn't work great in double bases, better in solo bases. His workers are feed-friendly unless you make a lumber/tower base. Goblin doesn't need a nerf, except his hunter. His walls are the best thing about him.

Draenei gem/orb costs 10g, and his towers are much better at supers/megas. You can even put forward the extra gold on g2l.

The walls aren't even that great for 2k wood for upgrade and 45g + 2000w for ARC. Draenei can just go merchant instead and go for truesight + lumber feed.

The only thing that separates the two is the flying hunter, which makes Goblin a beast of a builder. Oh, and also, Goblin walls are nice in the sense that it upgrades really fast, which was great when walling out/in titan was a thing before upgraded walls fed a tonne.

Goblin trap + Hunter + mana drain + ward block/trap, eye of ocean from afar + potential for evasion walls make him one of the best base supporter out there albeit his lack of ability to re-wall. He can one shot wards from afar after going ARC + hunter upgrade.

All you need is a re-waller like faerie, and Goblin hunter is one of the most OP pieces of crap ever invented.

Pirate is similar, except Goblin is a better suporter because he can just cram 3 workers in un-nukable spots in the base.

Have been asking for a nerf to ranged flying/1x1 hunters for a while, Neco hasn't given a response yet.

TL;DR Just think about it; how many games have been won with evasion walls, whereas the game was already won without them? Goblin is a shitty re-waller anyway, the evasion walls aren't really the best thing about Goblin. The best thing about Goblin are his workers + his flying hunter.

-Burn

[Haunt]

I would just like to point out that talking about hunters and morphlings in this topic is kinda irrelevant.

Neco asked if you would like to see Goblin's wall change to block from evasion. Answer the damn question.

[Burn]

The answer was in the post, madboy. It doesn't matter.

It is relevant, because Ham/Neco said Goblin was a "powerful" baser. This is true, under the pre-tense that Goblin has received at least 30 gold, which isn't far away from the 45g that makes basically any builder a "powerful" baser.

I make the post to prevent Goblin being nerfed to the ground like our brethren Tauren/Radio.

Also, it seemed no-one addressed Neco's quote: "I disagree with Goblin's evasion not needing to be replaced. It's too effective on an already powerful baser, and since it is "true" random it's possible to get some very lame luck and miss 5/6 times in a row. This really isn't ideal."

If that happens to a titan, which really shouldn't, (one in 244,140,625 chance to miss 6 times in a row) it doesn't really matter, 6 times is like half an upgraded 500w 15a wall.

Further illustrates my point; you generally don't get the chance to attack a morphling 200 times in a game, but you do with goblin walls. The bell curve should even out after a few sieges, whereas the disparity is insane for the Morphling getting attacked once or twice. Even just one initial first miss can mean life or death for the Morphling, whereas the Goblin getting hit 6 times or titan missing 6 times is not as game-changing.

Imagine that on a Morphling; 6 times could mean winning or losing the game or an early minion.

This is relevant to the topic because it backs up my point; it really doesn't matter that much, we should be fixing things that matter.

-Burn

[wastedlandering]

I think 1337 pretty much sums up my thoughts on the topic:

I think that goblin is fairly overpowered as it stands, arguably the best towers, arguably the best walls, and arguably the best hunter. I would love to see goblin wall evasion be a thing of the past. Also on the topic of morph evasion, the main part that makes his evasion strong isn't the damage block imo, but the fact that titan can miss the first hit(s) (no movement speed decrease). If you compare morphs evasion to earth pandas block it is clear which is better. If morphs eva[list=][/list] is nerfed it will just cause no one to stay in builder for any reason but to gold (if it is a game in which the player gets the gold to get beast form).

I'm entirely impartial to whether or not goblin adv walls are changed. I think evasion is fine, I think block would be fine as well, but I do think goblin overall is arguably the strongest builder (especially for double basing, great walls great hunter great towers and doesn't need much space to lumber; this shouldn't be taken as me advocating for gob nerfs, though). I think changing morphlings evasion would be a mistake though, for most of the reasons given in this thread. Having the chance to miss that first swing is valuable. No one will care if they can block a bit of damage, and I don't think morphling needs a change on this aspect of the builder.

[Hash]

I agree with what wasted said ^, I personally wouldn't really care if they became block walls or stayed as evasion walls. I also concur with his opinion about how morph evasion shouldn't be removed. I know its kind of off topic, but imo gob hunter seems a bit over overpowered due to its range, especially with the hunter upg. I know you removed the extra range for rad hunter upg, maybe do that for gob hunter as well?

[ShadowZz]

I thought it already was removed for Goblin's hunter @Neco ?

[Neco]

Yeah, Goblin and Pirate's hunters no longer get range with their upgrades.

[Hash]

Oh really, my bad didn't realize that. ^^

[ShadowZz]

If anything all you've done is highlight a good change and show that maybe it still needs more tweaking.

[FollowingPath]

If the range on the flying hunters gets reduced they would be nearly useless to have in the game. They have extremely low hp compared to other hunters and don't take many nukes to kill. If the range was reduced even further you wouldn't be able to kill a single ward without feeding your hunter, and defending against a titan with Titanic Wards would be extremely difficult. It would almost make rad/dryad hunters the only viable ward destroyers in the entire game.

[Burn]

You're not supposed to snipe those wards so easily with no gold. It's broken af. Hunters aren'y supposed to be so OP.

They can still mana drain and summon block, much better than any other hunter in the game.

1x1 range hunter range needs a nerf too.

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

I agree with Burn about 1x1 range hunters. They do need a nerf.

As for hunters in general they need a lot more done and changed to be useful/balanced but meh..

[Burn]

Nerfing advanced hunter research for goblin wasn't the way to go, because hardly anyone gets the luxury of getting that in the first place in most games. In most games, the default hunter range is there, and that shit is OP af. The hunter expert makes it even more OP with the additional hunter HP, and furbolg heals, but if the default was nerfed, the exper hunter range will be nerfed as well.

I suggest a 1/3 reduce in range for starters. It should be nerfed enough that the hunter has to travel into melee range if titan places the ward well.

-Burn

[aRt)Y]

Reminder: Subject title is "Goblin Advanced Walls."