Clog still works :(

[AvadaKedavra]

Edit: replay available
http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 134416.w3g
Please look at the blue demon on East side, it spawns in Pink lane, the lowest value in game. Look at when it reaches dark green, then compare its journey to king, with all other demons.

Hey everybody!

In the light of lihl being unvailable for the time being, what better opportunity to discuss the current map, balance, suggestions and such. Personally I really wanna discuss clog on 15. When I returned to lihl recently, I was delighted with a lot of the changes. Ea got nerfed a bit, a few small buffs to other units, lvl 12 send is now viable (although a bit too strong in my opinion), lots of good stuff. Apparently anti-clog measures have been implemented as well, which people in general were telling me when playing: "Clog 15 is useless now on the new map"

Sadly I have found this not to be true...!

I have played 30 or so games on the new map, in lihl and on 1200+, and 15 clog clearly still works, and impacts a lot of games. I noticed it the first time in an lihl game, where team west leaked 28 to mid on 15, East 68, and East actually gained "time" on West, barely losing due to heal disadvantage. What I found in the replay afterwards was all behemoths on the "clogging" side unable to attack, with too many centaurs surrounding king, whereas the team that leaked 28, seemed to hit a "sweet" spot, where all behemoths were attacking, yet there was still enough centaurs to cover the up the rest of the surface area. Furthermore the demons on the clogging side were "dancing" because of too many centaurs clogging, I think.

I wanted to make a post on the issue pretty early, but I decided to give it a bit of time, so I could learn the new map a bit better, and see if it was a recurring thing. Which it was. I have noted it many times since then on 15 races, clogging teams almost always seems to gain an advantage. Today I played a game on 1200+ that pushed me over the edge. Sadly I can't post the replay atm, when I try to click it in my game history on ENT it's unable to load. I'll try to explain it without a replay -.-

In this particular game:
-West leaks 40, East leaks 68.
-West sends 2600 (zxc) and 3 locks. East sends only 1 behemoth in total, and 3 locks as well.
-West had a holder who killed a demon and went mid. Around 6-800 value alive I think. East did not hold on any lane.
-All players on west had solid values, 2 times slow aura, no dead lane etc. East had the only leaker in game who had around 2000 value by 15.
-Both teams did corner delays

In the end, West ending up winning easily due to 4-0 heal advantage, but thats not the point. The first team to heal was West, even with a mid and only 3 demons to king. Had the game been 0-0 in heals, East would have won. I checked the replay, and found some very disturbing stuff. Again I would have loved to post replay at this point zzz

East had the only leaker, who had around 2000 value in his lane. It was 4 mutants, 1 unupped bear, some other stuff, and 100 gold corner delay. His demon was the first to "hit" the dark green grass, which is logical, since had low values, west had several slow auras and holder. His demon was the first to hit the dark green area, but the last demon to attack any king. And not just by 1-3 seconds. It was around 10 seconds behind the slowest demon on West, and probably 20 or so seconds slower than the first demon to attack a king. This is absolutely insane, considering this map is supposed to be "anti-clog". Considering there was a holder on West too. First demon to hit dark green area, is the last to attack a king by 10 or so seconds. Extreme

In the replay, it clearly shows why this happen: The demon that reached dark green area, is getting blocked endlessly by centaurs, both early on, and later on as well. When it reaches the king, it starts "dancing" around, partly due to too many centaurs and other sends.

Another thing I noticed, and sadly I don't have the replay anymore, but I clicked on the Demons on the "clogging" side, and they all had "fast" movement speed. On the "non-clogging" side, the demons had "very fast" movement speed. Seems like a mistake, as this is exactly the opposite of how the anti-clog measures should work? The non-clogging leaks should move slower, not faster?

This became very long, and very shitty post due to replay not being availabe on ent. I posted it in LIHL section, guess it could have been in the general LTD section. The post is aimed at everybody, but in particular Brouder, who has done a lot of great work on the map, but still have more to do it seems...

Anyways, just my take on 15 clog on the new map. It still works. It still sucks. Needs more fixing.

[supersexyy]

It's not the point of whether 'Clog works' but the point that 'Clog is no longer OP'. Giving an example of a clog strat working proves that 'Clog works' but it doesn't prove that 'Clog is still OP'.

For example, I can have a soccer team with 7 strikers and 3 defenders and win the game, that doesn't make it overpowered.

It would be a shame to completely remove clog, it is a legitimate strategy.

With the new changes it is still difficult to ascertain whether the map doesn't fix clog, or if players are playing sub optimally (because people only know how to clog). It took a long time for people to start doing the 'yolo' strat and players purposely leaking instead of holding every lane, it may take a while to reverse this.

[KiwiKiller[QQ]]

I played over 100 games on 3.42 map and I just want to say that this kind of game happens so rarely. In fact, it happens so rarely I don't think it really is a matter. I think it happened to me only once and it was a similar case.

[Stiff_Maistar]

@Avadakedavra When you try to look at a game/replay, swap the "clanent.net"/.... with "entgaming.net"/.... : example - https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=9135397
Than post the replay link here so its easier for people and broud3r to look at it.

[supersexyy]

.

[AvadaKedavra]

@Avadakedavra When you try to look at a game/replay, swap the "clanent.net"/.... with "entgaming.net"/.... : example - https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=9135397
Than post the replay link here so its easier for people and broud3r to look at it.

Thanks!! Will post replay now

[Diablo_]

I don't think clogging is an issure anymore. Of course it might still lead to a win sometimes but it would also be stupid if the team that leaks 10 more creeps would always lose the race.
Also the anti-clogging feature is that the team that leaks (far) more will leak faster and I wouldn't say that 40 vs 68 leaks is such a big difference, basically it's both teams leaking a lot and I don't think the speed buff should have much impact here.

However, it is indeed weird that the creeps of west had "very fast" while the ones of east only had "fast". East leaked more creeps and more sends, yet west team's creeps were affected by the anti clogging?
@broud3r you might want to have a look at it, maybe something is wrong with it.

[AvadaKedavra]

I don't think clogging is an issure anymore. Of course it might still lead to a win sometimes but it would also be stupid if the team that leaks 10 more creeps would always lose the race.
Also the anti-clogging feature is that the team that leaks (far) more will leak faster and I wouldn't say that 40 vs 68 leaks is such a big difference, basically it's both teams leaking a lot and I don't think the speed buff should have much impact here.

However, it is indeed weird that the creeps of west had "very fast" while the ones of east only had "fast". East leaked more creeps and more sends, yet west team's creeps were affected by the anti clogging?
@broud3r you might want to have a look at it, maybe something is wrong with it.

The people arguing clogging is no issue, please comment on the blue demon in the game above. Notice the value of pink. Notice when the demon hits dark green area. Then compare the Demon from this lane, the lane that leaks most/fastest to dark green, with demons all from all other lanes. Look at the time other demons reach king and start attacking. Also notice lanes on west had slow auras etc. I need this explained in a rational manner, else I will have a very hard time changing my opinion :s

[supersexyy]

I think you're missing the point...

[Krayyzie]

"early clog" weakened alot due to giving enemies value advantage, race clog still the same tho. Maybe some minor change, but its still working fine to, for example clog 15.
But like last rule, most mods didnt want to do anything about race clog, only early clog, so I guess the "clog problem" is gone...

[Nore]

I have not heard any qualms since this was posted about "clog", so unless there is a real outcry for this problem to be addressed, we will leave things as they are.

The game will never be "perfect" or completely balanced, as almost no game ever is, so this is most likely not going to ever truly be "fixed". Playing around it, or playing to it's "strength" is up to you as a team. As long as you are not breaking any specific rule, then you can use this either to your advantage, or deal with it, as it is fair for all(since it's not like the other team has separate rules).

I personally have played many games the past week or two, and have not seen 1 instance that would make me think "clog win". Maybe I am just lucky enough to dodge these types of games, but I believe 30-40 games is a good enough sample size to tell, which is around what I played.

Archiving..