Island Defense Feedback Survey - Neco Read

[Remixer]

Hello,

I've lately returned to playing Island Defense and I've been noticing some very serious balance issues. I invite every to talk about how they see the balance and how it should be dealt with.

As a mapper myself I also hate couple of mechanics that also break the balance even further, but even worse are really frustrating to play against with no real counter play. Also as my main area of the World Editor are Object Editor and Terraining I hate to see big flaws on Island Defense on these areas.

Especially when playing Titan some descriptions are just poorly designed and some do not really give any information about the spell.

So I also ask Neco if he accepts help / collaboration with Island Defense? I heard this is the place to contact him.

But for others Island Defense players there I want to talk about the balance to see if I am only one seeing that the game is not balanced. To make the comments and overall feedback more clear I'd like you to use color coding in order for me to see which areas players feel are unbalanced. For now I'd appreciate people's visions about following topics/areas:


Items: Are items balanced and are they convenient? Give ideas and feedback about both builder and titan items. Here you should mention how the items are not "optimal" for example mention awkward building paths (recipes), poor stats or just awkward completion of the item (no real purpose in the game).

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[color=#40BF40][b]Items:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Abilities: Are abilities (excluding item abilities) really efficient but still balanced? Give opinions only about builder units and items. Is some spell too easily countered or just plain useless? Could an ability be upgraded or just buffed? Does some ability lose its functionality and thus usefulness over the game?

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[color=#00BFFF][b]Abilities:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Terrain: Is terrain how it's supposed to be? Is it clear where you can walk and move? Is the terrain still appealing and not clumsy-looking. Most importantly is the terrain balanced and functional? Is there specific area or a base that could use a fix? Try to take a look at the complete image as well - is the map as whole equally balanced on every side / from every angle? Or is there an area that is used/occupied too often or not all? Is some base just superior or too weak? Why is this and how could you fix it?

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[color=#0040FF][b]Terrain:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Game Mechanics: Is there any specific game mechanics you would like to have a word about? Which game mechanics are okay and which are annoying? Here you should also talk about Warcraft III game weaknesses such as poor AI and command issues. If there is a game mechanic [such as Item jumping, Ankh jumping, Summon jumping, Wall Walking, Worker Block...] you don't like and think should be limited / removed or just want to talk of, say it here.

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[color=#8000BF][b]Game Mechanics:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Techree: Here mention if there's issues in Techree (updates and and unit/update availability). Is some upgrade just useless or too easy or hard to get? Is some update too necessary for survival or succession? Also discuss about the price of upgrades? Is there some specific research or an upgrade that is only available after doing something that makes the upgrade/research not worth it? Is there a point where you'd like to have a research/upgrade that does not exist?

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[color=#FF00FF][b]Techree:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Builders: Is the complete state of builders balanced? Is the situation fair to the Titan? Which builders need more love and which are picked too often and thus might be a little over powered or show a too big role in the game? Is there a builder that is not picked at all or too rarely? Is there a builder that makes no sense, having too complicated or invalid kit (not clear role)? Also talk about the overall ramping up in section. Is there a builder that is superior in start but falls in late game or the other way around? If you think there is a specific reason a builder is (not) selected, please mention that too.

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[color=#FF0080][b]Builders:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Titans: Are the Titan equally balanced, meaning each Titan gives the same struggle to play (against). Is there a titan you don't want to play (against)? In this topic also discuss about Titans' abilities and their balance. Also notice to give feedback about their Tooltips and descriptions. Are the Titans ramping up correctly (gaining power in a balanced way without huge power spikes or drawbacks)? Are the titans too different from each other? Also talk about Minions and their abilities - are minions actually useful or just feed for the builders? Do you think that titan has a clear way of picking the ability levels or does it differ on the situation? Also what would you like to see done differently or fixed? For example is it good that some titans have a bouncing nuke meanwhile the others do not? Is some titan or a feature too overpowered?

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[color=#BF0000][b]Titans:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Overall Gameplay: Is the overall gameplay balanced - or does the game get "stuck" or "boring" at a point? Do you see a certain pattern repeating itself over the games or between the games? Is there a certain gameplay area that you want to mention? Is the gameplay fair and should there be systems to make it more fair? On this topic also discuss the larger systems such as the Feed Reduction system and overall developing of each gameplay session. Are the too many similar builders selected? Are there feeders in most of the games and how do you think these could be dealt with?

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[color=#400040][b]Overall Gameplay:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Other: Is there a topic that you'd like to talk about that I did not notice or mention? You can also give little feedback a certain things that fall in between two topics or do not necessarily fit in any of the already mentioned.

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[color=#FF8000][b]Other:[/b] Write your comment here.[/color]

Thanks for your time. =)

[ShadowZz]

Off topic:
These topics already exist and have lengthy posts in them. Feel free to browse this entire section: viewforum.php?f=153

Feature Suggestions / Changes is 32 pages long on it's own.

[aRt)Y]

Off topic:
@ShadowZz Don't think this is about suggestions really but just feedback.

I like that someone is trying to organize but I can already tell this is gonna derail at one point or another.

[Lynx]

Off topic:
this is a great initiative as balance still isn't good enough to consistently play.

"these topics" doesn't exist as concrete as this one. So commended for going offtopic /s as jazzman said this will derail unless moderation is applied. delete shadowzzs, avions, and this post please.

[aRt)Y]

Off topic:
As we all know by now that feedback can't be given in the form of a forum topic, perhaps try other mediums? I.e. Google Survey. If @neco is interested, he can easily do it. Otherwise, see posts above.

[Remixer]

Well my primary intention is actually to contact Neco and see if he has given up on the map and if I can help him out with it or something like that.

[Dehumanchum]

he hasn't given up on the map I can promise you that. Also take a look at the 4.0 section of the ID forum as stated in earlier. There are already numerous threads about balance issues and also terrain issues.

As for my personal opinion about the state of the game, I've been taking with thought process that this is a beta and anything is at risk of changing. And also the game just needs to be streamlined for easier gameplay and learning curve.

[ShadowZz]

Agree 100%.

[Burn]

Easier gameplay? Sure. Learning curve? Sure.

Most of all I think there should be entertainment for older players. Notice how there are no old players, ever? Everyone in IDG is dead, west/euro is dead, and BTI shammies is made of all newer 1-2 year old players.

We need quality of life suggestions and changes. We need entertainment for builders after first few minions. We need a way to stop staller titans. We need to change the boring builder things like early AFK basing and not having anything to do for the rest of the game.

Please don't mention how this is an old game and it should be dying, look at WC3DotA. It is an older game than ID and is more popular with all its old playerbase intact (even disregarding DotA2).

-Burn

[wastedlandering]

I think this thread is a good initiative, and would be a great outline for how to have a decent discussion about how to improve the game. But like arty said, there are better mediums for people this motivated at improving the game.

Like others have said, Neco is far from giving up on the game, and is more than receptive of feedback, and certainly reads everything going on in these forums. If you would like to contact him, or get his attention, a Pm would do, and I'm sure he would give you discord contact info to chat/voice about your ideas (assuming you are an experienced map designer, like you imply). There are other mediums that have been applied, such as a (rarely used) reddit forum, for example.

Personally, I just don't have time to outline many pages of details and do the nit-gritty balance calculations to give suggestions on most of the things you posted about (for example, items for titan: ofc they are outdated and need massive improvements, but I don't have the answer of the top of my head because I haven't crunched the math or collaborated like Neco and his friends have, which is why I generally defer to his opinion when it comes to balancing such things, and why love his website spreadsheet info so much).

There are many balance threads. If you have suggestions, please post them. They do exist, though I like the idea of organizing suggestions. Neco does have spreadsheets for such things.

[wastedlandering]

Easier gameplay? Sure. Learning curve? Sure.

Most of all I think there should be entertainment for older players. Notice how there are no old players, ever? Everyone in IDG is dead, west/euro is dead, and BTI shammies is made of all newer 1-2 year old players.

We need quality of life suggestions and changes. We need entertainment for builders after first few minions. We need a way to stop staller titans. We need to change the boring builder things like early AFK basing and not having anything to do for the rest of the game.

Please don't mention how this is an old game and it should be dying, look at WC3DotA. It is an older game than ID and is more popular with all its old playerbase intact (even disregarding DotA2).

-Burn

A double post, having just read this:

I agree that we need quality of life changes, and entertainment after first minions, and a way to deter stalling titans. 100% agree. Forward is the path; updates are the way.

Although I do agree how old players seem to be disappearing constantly, and more importantly not returning much. Is that the end of Island Defense? No. Do people leave once a game gets older? Yes. Maybe island defense isn't the kind of game that will last forever. Games come and go, games are made and die. That is simply life, for thousands of years we, as humans, have been creating and abandoning games. Of course, this process is accelerated in the 21st century. Should we be trying to keep older players? Sure we should, but I would rather keep trying to progress the game to something better, to attract thousands of new players, rather than sticking with what kept a few dozen people around. Even if the efforts fail, I'd rather see us try.

The 2.8.5c map is still there. So is 3.0.9d. Go ahead, start hosting those maps with your own bot. You'll get players, you might even get a nostalgia spike in popularity. But as an example, the most popular vanilla wow server didn't even come close to the numbers actual vanilla (or current) WoW has. There is value in those sorts of things, but the kinds of things that keep games alive are not never changing games, they are adapting games that keep the game play interesting (you want a game that never changes? go play mario and pac-man. Yes they are incredibly popular, but are they the single version of a video game you want to play forever?)

Neco is an avenue to the game we want to play, so we should work with him on that. But honestly, trying to keep a game friendly to a few old players is a bad strategy. Honestly, the game needs to evolve beyond WC3 to be viable, the engine is too old for the potential that ID has. People always want updates then bitch about change. You cannot have one without the other; and you will never please everyone with a single change (there will always be bitching).

[Burn]

"Although I do agree how old players seem to be disappearing constantly, and more importantly not returning much. Is that the end of Island Defense? No. Do people leave once a game gets older? Yes. Maybe island defense isn't the kind of game that will last forever. Games come and go, games are made and die. That is simply life, for thousands of years we, as humans, have been creating and abandoning games. Of course, this process is accelerated in the 21st century. Should we be trying to keep older players? Sure we should, but I would rather keep trying to progress the game to something better, to attract thousands of new players, rather than sticking with what kept a few dozen people around. Even if the efforts fail, I'd rather see us try."

Look at WoW, it still has a massive population, with players pre-BurningCrusade and earlier. We can't say the same for Island Defense. Thus, the "Games come and go, games are made and die" thing is bullshit. There's no other game that can replace WC3 Island Defense right now, which is why it won't die for a long time, similar to WoW.

Island Defense can't sustain the 2.8.5c or 309d player-base unless you organise in-houses, and you know it.

But honestly, trying to keep a game friendly to a few old players is a bad strategy. Honestly, the game needs to evolve beyond WC3 to be viable, the engine is too old for the potential that ID has.

I'm not talking about reverting changes or "trying to keep a game friendly to a few old players". I'm talking about improving game-play for builders after titan camps mid and builder's often best strategy is to make a pent-base and a couple shit-bases. The shit-bases will be fed upon, then pent-base will then fall.

Players in the pent-base do nothing for the next 30 minutes until GP hits and they lose with megas. This has happened far too many times and it's boring as hell for averyone in the pent-base, even though it's the most likely strategy to win.

-Burn

[Lynx]

Off topic:
lol, some of the thoughts here are ridiculous

I cba to join the discussion but let me chime in briefly; it's a necessity to keep the game attractive to older players and give them intention to play. This is because it is those who are the community, teach the beginners, inspire the beginners, evolve the meta game. Basically old players are the ones moving the game forward.

Every player will eventually become an "old player", and if there isn't proper reason for old players to stay eventually everyone will have left. This might not be an issue for normal games as the growth of the game neglects the loss of players, since WC3 barely gets any new players ID will get even fewer. Thus it is essential to keep the old players, not everyone have the passion for ID to stay with it no matter what like me or Burn.

[Burn]

You have accused me of not being open to the change, which is not true at all. That's what I'm talking about. We need change. Even 309d or 285c has the same big problems that 4.x.x has. Staller titans & boring basing late game. I have adapted a play-to-win play-style, and all my friends and clan-mates I play with likewise, which is early AFK basing and farming elo.

I have found that the play-to-win playstyle is incredibly boring, and a not exciting enough, which is why I don't play the game as often as I did when I had a stalling mentality. I believe this is also the reason why all the oldies also quit. Because it's boring to have the play-to-win strategy, and most of the best well-known players were play-to-win.

I usually have to play to have a fun stalling mentality, which is why I found ID so entertaining and such an exciting game for me. What Neco has to do is to make tower basing more fun, or make stalling a more viable strategy. Right now I'm trying to show Neco the bigger picture. The game is boring. It needs a change. Do something about it.

-Burn

[Remixer]

Well the stalling is one problem, too many games end up Titan eventually suiciding or in another scenario, certain base(s) being too hard for the titan to even try, which leads him to feast on easier bases (mean while the builders in the superb bases have nothing else to do but wait and watch the end coming eventually) until he can crush even the hardest base.

The fact is that nothing forces the titan to fight a certain base, until it's the very last thing to do. Then again a solution implemented in the map Island of Frogs does not kinda feel correct in Island Defense.

Why I think the game is a little boring when playing a baser is that no matter which Titan you will face, you don't base any different. Sure, if it's Titan such as Grani (screw Terminus), you wish you'd picked a builder with some ranged attack to destroy the healing stone (which is op as hell btw), but you cannot change that since Titan picks last. I think that Titans need more variety - currently it's not really fun to play a baser. This can be seen easily in a lot of games - most players pick a golder such as Magnataur or Tauren, where gold shows a big role in their gameplay. Another loved play style is to pick a semi-golder, such as Faerie who is often the one trickster camping around mid waiting for opportunity but might base later on in the game.

If we had different kind of Titans basing would be cooler, or if we had different kind of basers to begin with. Titans' kits are too similar. Each of them has:
1. Nuke (it's a must so that builders can't survive in seeds forever)
2. Heal (quite essential, but why is every heal a press of a button (apart from Grani heal)
3. Scout (mostly an ability that is not very convenient (Syph eye? Voltron (idk what is its name?))
4. Wind Walk (yes... every titan apart from Demo (who also have kind-a-wind-walk)
5. Ultimate that is never even reached in any game, and even if it is, it's not very powerful usually.
6. A passive (some op some not so much?) (12% evasion, what the hell??)

Why don't we have a titan (could be e.g. Voltron) who has 7 second wind walk with practically no cooldown? That would change the entire aspect of the game really, golders would have to know where the titan is, since his ww would be constantly ready, and basers wouldn't have to cafe for that long-regenerating ww time and so on.

I even made a concept of Voltron having a on-hit passive that bounced up two 3 additional WALLs when he hits. If a titan had such passive builders would prefer to build high-dps instead of huge line of walls in front of their towers.

And secondly, why on earth does every ultimate spell require a level any titan is never going to reach?